Vraag of 2 oor die Gloei van doppe...

[Ashley]

More manne.

Ek het n vraag of 2 oor die uitgloei van doppe;

1) Is dit nodig om gegloeide doppe dadelik af te koel in water, of is daar geen addisionele waarde daarin nie?

2) Moet gegloeide doppe dadelik ge "re-size" word, of kan dit wag tot jou volgende herlaai sessie?

3) Net vir interesantheid, waarom gloei mens net die nek/skouer gedeelte uit as die "head"/onderste gedeelte ook met tyd verswak en breek (case-head separation)?


Ek luister graag na julle advise, dankie

[Capt. Yoda]

More manne.

Ek het n vraag of 2 oor die uitgloei van doppe;

1) Is dit nodig om gegloeide doppe dadelik af te koel in water, of is daar geen addisionele waarde daarin nie?

2) Moet gegloeide doppe dadelik ge "re-size" word, of kan dit wag tot jou volgende herlaai sessie?

3) Net vir interesantheid, waarom gloei mens net die nek/skouer gedeelte uit as die "head"/onderste gedeelte ook met tyd verswak en breek (case-head separation)?


Ek luister graag na julle advise, dankie

1. Jy kan dit in water sit om die hitte dadelik te stop maar dit is nie noodsaaklik nie
2. Nee jy kan hul size wanner jy wil, die molukelere stuktuur van die brass is klaar verander deur die hitte en sal nie van self verander as hul staan nie.
3. As jy die onderste gedeelte by die web voor die gesig vesag gaan jy case head seperation kry, dit is ook die rede dat baie ouens die dop in water gooi na hy warem gemaak is sodat die hitte nie ondertoe verspy nie. Anneal maak die brass weer sag en jy wil nie die onderste deel by die web sag maak nie

[dsmerrills]

Hi Ash,

1) I feel it is essential to cool the cases down as soon as possible if not then the heat transfers down the case which is not what you want, the emphasis is just on the neck of the case.

2) No you don't have to immediately resize the cases, this can be down whenever your ready to reload.

3) This area is only done because after multiple reloading, brass becomes brittle and can crack and good bullet and neck seal will decrease.

[Hein M.]

More manne.

Ek het n vraag of 2 oor die uitgloei van doppe;

1) Is dit nodig om gegloeide doppe dadelik af te koel in water, of is daar geen addisionele waarde daarin nie?

2) Moet gegloeide doppe dadelik ge "re-size" word, of kan dit wag tot jou volgende herlaai sessie?

3) Net vir interesantheid, waarom gloei mens net die nek/skouer gedeelte uit as die "head"/onderste gedeelte ook met tyd verswak en breek (case-head separation)?


Ek luister graag na julle advise, dankie

Die afkoeling in water het nie 'n direkte voordeel met die sagmaakproses van die brass nie. Die grootste voordeel is dat jy met afkoeling die proses dadelik stop - en keer dat die dop se onderkant te lank warm bly.

Die gegloeide doppe hoef nie dadelik gesize te word nie. Die brass is nou sag - en sal eers weer verhard as dit hervorm word.

Die onderste deel van die dop is ontwerp om geweldige druk te weerstaan. As jy die metaal daar gaan versag sal die dop oopbars...

[Ashley]

Baie Dankie Kaptein, dsmerrills en Hein.

Waardeer!

[Hein M.]

Drie vinnige antwoorde... Gebeur as almal gelyk tik!

Dink jy het jou antwoorde

[dsmerrills]

[SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]

[Gian_dP]

Case head separation gebeur as jou kopspasie verkeerd is, of jy jou skouer oormatige terug druk met fl hervorming. Die dop "rek" dan net voor die Web tot dat dit te dun is en oop bars/skeur

[Ashley]

Drie vinnige antwoorde... Gebeur as almal gelyk tik!

En almal stem vir n slag saam!

Dankie julle

[Gawie(13mm)]

1)Nginomuzwa wokuthi kubalulekile ukuba kuphole amacala phansi ngokushesha ngangokunokwenzeka uma kungenjalo ke Ukudluliselwa ukushisa phansi icala engesiyo okufunayo , kugcizelelwa nje entanyeni icala .

2 ) Akukho ungenawo ngokushesha ushintshe usayizi amacala , lokhu kungaba phansi noma nini ukulungele yakho ukuze ulayishe kabusha .

3 ) Le ndawo kuphela kwenziwa ngoba emva ulayishe amaningi , nethusi kuba ziyaqothuka futhi kungaba crack nokuhle bullet nentamo uphawu uzokwehla .

Hamba kahle,
Gawie.

[cassie_calvinia]

1)Nginomuzwa wokuthi kubalulekile ukuba kuphole amacala phansi ngokushesha ngangokunokwenzeka uma kungenjalo ke Ukudluliselwa ukushisa phansi icala engesiyo okufunayo , kugcizelelwa nje entanyeni icala .

2 ) Akukho ungenawo ngokushesha ushintshe usayizi amacala , lokhu kungaba phansi noma nini ukulungele yakho ukuze ulayishe kabusha .

3 ) Le ndawo kuphela kwenziwa ngoba emva ulayishe amaningi , nethusi kuba ziyaqothuka futhi kungaba crack nokuhle bullet nentamo uphawu uzokwehla .

Hamba kahle,
Gawie.

so begin dit...

[Hein M.]

1)Nginomuzwa wokuthi kubalulekile ukuba kuphole amacala phansi ngokushesha ngangokunokwenzeka uma kungenjalo ke Ukudluliselwa ukushisa phansi icala engesiyo okufunayo , kugcizelelwa nje entanyeni icala .

2 ) Akukho ungenawo ngokushesha ushintshe usayizi amacala , lokhu kungaba phansi noma nini ukulungele yakho ukuze ulayishe kabusha .

3 ) Le ndawo kuphela kwenziwa ngoba emva ulayishe amaningi , nethusi kuba ziyaqothuka futhi kungaba crack nokuhle bullet nentamo uphawu uzokwehla .

Hamba kahle,
Gawie.

Weer so skerp soos 'n Minora blade vanoggend

[Ashley]

1)Nginomuzwa wokuthi kubalulekile ukuba kuphole amacala phansi ngokushesha ngangokunokwenzeka uma kungenjalo ke Ukudluliselwa ukushisa phansi icala engesiyo okufunayo , kugcizelelwa nje entanyeni icala .

2 ) Akukho ungenawo ngokushesha ushintshe usayizi amacala , lokhu kungaba phansi noma nini ukulungele yakho ukuze ulayishe kabusha .

3 ) Le ndawo kuphela kwenziwa ngoba emva ulayishe amaningi , nethusi kuba ziyaqothuka futhi kungaba crack nokuhle bullet nentamo uphawu uzokwehla .

Hamba kahle,
Gawie.

..Eish...

[Capt. Yoda]

1)Nginomuzwa wokuthi kubalulekile ukuba kuphole amacala phansi ngokushesha ngangokunokwenzeka uma kungenjalo ke Ukudluliselwa ukushisa phansi icala engesiyo okufunayo , kugcizelelwa nje entanyeni icala .

2 ) Akukho ungenawo ngokushesha ushintshe usayizi amacala , lokhu kungaba phansi noma nini ukulungele yakho ukuze ulayishe kabusha .

3 ) Le ndawo kuphela kwenziwa ngoba emva ulayishe amaningi , nethusi kuba ziyaqothuka futhi kungaba crack nokuhle bullet nentamo uphawu uzokwehla .

Hamba kahle,
Gawie.

..Eish...

Gawie was net bang jou tuindeskundige doen jou anneal werk vir jou so nou kan hy ook mooi verstaan

[Gawie(13mm)]

Sawubona .

Abaqhuba Just ilungelo lami yentando yeningi out uhlobo ngolimi olukhethile yami . I ukukhonza it in Afrikaans , kodwa Day ifoni Tus konke in Zulu !

Hamba kahle,
Gawie.

[PWV]

1)Nginomuzwa wokuthi kubalulekile ukuba kuphole amacala phansi ngokushesha ngangokunokwenzeka uma kungenjalo ke Ukudluliselwa ukushisa phansi icala engesiyo okufunayo , kugcizelelwa nje entanyeni icala .

2 ) Akukho ungenawo ngokushesha ushintshe usayizi amacala , lokhu kungaba phansi noma nini ukulungele yakho ukuze ulayishe kabusha .

3 ) Le ndawo kuphela kwenziwa ngoba emva ulayishe amaningi , nethusi kuba ziyaqothuka futhi kungaba crack nokuhle bullet nentamo uphawu uzokwehla .

Hamba kahle,
Gawie.

Joune ok!

[Ashley]

Joune ok!

[PWV]

Een van die beste artikels wat ek oor uitgloeiing gelees het.
Onderstaande is van die belangrikste aspekte.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Optimal Case Temperatures for Successful Annealing
Brass is an excellent conductor of heat. A flame applied at any point on a case for a short time will cause the rest of the case to heat very quickly. There are several temperatures at which brass is affected. Also, the time the brass remains at a given temperature will have an effect. Brass which has been "work hardened" (sometimes referred to as "cold worked") is unaffected by temperatures (Fahrenheit) up to 482 degrees (F) regardless of the time it is left at this temperature. At about 495 degrees (F) some changes in grain structure begins to occur, although the brass remains about as hard as before--it would take a laboratory analysis to see the changes that take place at this temperature.
The trick is to heat the neck just to the point where the grain structure becomes sufficiently large enough to give the case a springy property, leaving the body changed but little, and the head of the case virtually unchanged.
If cases are heated to about 600 degrees (F) for one hour, they will be thoroughly annealed--head and body included. That is, they will be ruined. (For a temperature comparison, pure lead melts at 621.3 degrees F).
The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.
Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft. From this discussion we can see that there are four considerations concerning time and temperature:
1. Due to conduction, the amount of heat necessary to sufficiently anneal the case neck is great enough to ruin the rest of the case.
2. 2. If the case necks are exposed to heat for a sufficient period of time, a lower temperature can be used.
3. 3. The longer the case necks are exposed to heat, the greater the possibility that too much heat will be conducted into the body and head, thereby ruining the cases.
4. 4. The higher the temperature, the less time the case necks will be exposed to heat, and there will be insufficient time for heat to be conducted into the body and head.
5. You can see that there are a couple of Catch-22s involved in this annealing business. On the one hand, the brass conducts heat quite rapidly, and a fairly high temperature with sufficient time must be attained to do the job. On the other hand, too much time cancels the effect, and we will be left with a case that is too soft and not suitable for anything but scrap. Obviously, there must be a solution; otherwise, not even the cartridge manufacturers could do it right.
Automated Annealing
To solve the problems of automatic case annealing, we need to accomplish the following tasks:
1. Control the time the case neck will be heated.
2. Control the amount of heat delivered to the case neck.
3. Revolve the case at a constant rate (during heating) so that heat is applied evenly around the neck.
4. Prevent, or sufficiently limit, heat conduction into the case head.
Add to the above list the additional frills listed below, and you'll be in hog heaven:
5. The annealer must be easy to set up.
6. The annealer must be simple and easy to maintain.
7. The annealing process must be easy. It must not require expensive testing equipment or unusual skills and knowledge.
8. The annealing process must be fairly quick. The machine operator should be able to anneal several hundred cases per hour.
9. The process must be repeatable and predictable. Cases must be uniform from case to case, as well as from session to session.
Over-Annealing and Under-Annealing
When cartridge brass is under-annealed, virtually nothing has changed. If your case necks have become work-hardened, they will remain work-hardened, You will not see any improvement in case life or in accuracy. You will assume (incorrectly) that annealing is a waste of time. (In this case, with under-annealed brass, it is.)
Over-annealing is certainly the worst condition, and can even be dangerous, as pointed out above. Over-annealing has two aspects: over-annealing of the case neck only, and any annealing of the lower half of the case. There is no particular danger to over-annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve, or it may become worse, and the cases may seem to be a little more sticky during extraction. Case life will be improved because the necks are soft--too soft. However, you will conclude that annealing is not what it is cracked-up to be, and may even be a waste of time.
Any annealing whatsoever of the cartridge base is over-annealing and is dangerous. This area of the brass must retain the properties it had when it left the factory. If it is made the least bit softer, let alone "dead" soft, the stage is set for another shooter's nightmare. At the very least, you may get a whiff of hot gas directed toward your face.
At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm.
I once heard a tale of a gentleman who placed his brass on a cookie tray and placed the whole batch in an oven at 650 degrees for over an hour. He wasn't hurt--at least seriously. His attitude toward annealing is very negative.
Cartridge brass which has been annealed over its entire length will exhibit signs of excessive pressure even with moderate and reduced loads. Indeed, cases in this condition are subjected to excessive pressures. Any pressure is excessive. Head separation, incipient head separation, stuck or sticky cases, blown primers, swollen cases, swollen case heads, enlarged primer pockets (I mean REALLY enlarged), and just about every other sign of excessive pressure imaginable can occur with cases which have been annealed over their entire length.
Testing Cartridge Brass for Hardness and Softness
This is not a definitive test of case hardness; it is more of an illustration than anything else. It requires a pair of small Vise-Grips and a few bottle neck rifle cases in various conditions of use: a factory fresh empty case, two cases that have not split but have been fired many times, and a couple of extra cases to set the jaws of the Vice Grips.
Place one of the used cases base down in a shallow tray containing water up to the lower third of the case, and deliberately over-heat the case neck--bring it to a red heat.
Adjust the Vise-Grips until the jaws barely touch the case neck when they are fully closed. Then, Carefully adjust them to go a few thousands of an inch beyond that point. the jaws should close until you can just barely visibly detect that the case mouth is deformed when the Vise-Grips are closed.
Ordinary pliers are not good for this demonstration because it is too easy to go too far. Vise-Grips, on the other hand, have an adjustable limit to which they can be closed.
Squeeze the neck of the used, but un-annealed case. Note the pressure required. Also note that when the pressure is released, the case neck springs back to its original shape.

Squeeze the neck of the factory fresh case. Once again note that the case neck springs back to its original shape, and that it takes slightly less pressure to deform it than the un-annealed case.
Now, squeeze the annealed case. The pressure to deform it is markedly less and when it is released, the case mouth remains deformed--no spring.
One more test--stand the annealed case on a metal plate (no water over the base) and heat the upper half to a red heat. Hold the heat for a few seconds and then let it cool. Adjust the Vice-Grips so that they can put considerable squeeze on the head area and crush the annealed case. Now crush one of the normal used cases. The difference is dramatic. Don't test an over-annealed case in a gun just to see what happens--take my word for it, the results can be dangerous to life, limb and eye, not to mention the condition of the gun. Finally, crush all test cases so that they won't get mixed in with good brass.
If you are a chemist or a metallurgist and know how to do it, you can make some photomicrographs of sections taken from the various critical points of several cases for reference. Of coarse, you could have been out on the range having a good time instead of fussing with such things, but to each his own.
Preparing the Brass for Annealing
The brass does not require any special preparation before it can be annealed. However, you will need a few polished cases in order to determine the correct temperature. This is important if you want first class results. If your first batch of brass will be pistol brass, don't use plated cases for the testing. Plated cases anneal just fine, but you will not be able to see the color of the brass as it heats up under that shiny coating of nickel.
If you have a polisher, polish the brass before annealing it. If you do not have a polisher, use a little Brasso or other brass polish on a dozen or so cases Polish them about half way down the case by putting a little Brasso on a soft cloth and turning them by hand. If you have a polisher, I don't need to tell you how to polish the brass.
When To Anneal
OK, now that you know how to anneal, you need to know when to anneal. If you shoot light loads, you can go a long time between annealing. Moderate loads will necessitate annealing a little more often. Normal loads will work harden the case after an amazingly short time. Hot or maximum loads will require annealing very often--something on the order of once after every two to four firings.
You must also consider that some work-hardening occurs when the brass is resized, so the number of firings do not tell the whole story. Another consideration is the chamber size of your gun. If you have a "loose" chamber, you will expand your brass more. It will need to be squeezed more when it is resized, thereby causing it to be worked a little more than "normal".
Another indicator is the opening up of your groups. When you start getting fliers and abnormally large groups, check your case necks along with all of the other variables; it may be time to anneal. If you're a chemist or metallurgist, you could acid-etch a case neck and microscopically inspect the grain size.
In the end, it will be your own experience that will determine the proper frequency of annealing--just like every other aspect of handloading, there are many variables which are peculiar to your particular problems, methods, techniques, loads, components and guns. You are the final judge.
The next question is, should cases be annealed before reforming? I will let Mr. Earl Naramore answer that Question ("Principles & Practices of Reloading", Small Arms Tech. Publ. Company, 1954):
"As to whether cases should be annealed prior to re-forming them to some wildcat shape, much depends upon circumstances. Re-forming such cases in an ordinary resizing die puts a crushing force on them and I fear that if this cock-eyed method is used, the annealing would only make the crushing of the cases easier. But if a preliminary break-down die is used, there would probably be an advantage to annealing before the re-forming is done; it depends on the force of the break-down die, the nature of the case, and such.
If cases are annealed for re-forming, the angle of the flame should be set back and it should be carried to a point where the shine on the cases disappears. Following the annealing, the cases should be polished again outside before any sizing is done on them. The loss of shine means that the surface is oxidizing and such a surface will give excessive resistance in a die."
If you are forming brass and have definite instructions as to when, where and how much to anneal, by all means, follow the instructions that you have been given. The "instructions" above are more in the form of "guidelines" rather than definite instructions.

The last question is, "Do I anneal before resizing, or after"? Theoretically annealing does not change the diameter of the case neck. In practice, it may or may not, depending on how much the metal is stressed. Therefore, you should always anneal before resizing.

[Riaan Kriel]

Anneal jy te veel en beskadig maw jou doppe indien jy elke slag anneal as deel van dopvoorbereiding?

[PWV]

Anneal jy te veel en beskadig maw jou doppe indien jy elke anneal as deel van dopvoorbereiding?

Soos hierdie artikel aanbeveel, "anneal" ek na elke 3de herlaaiproses.

[Apie]

Anneal jy te veel en beskadig maw jou doppe indien jy elke slag anneal as deel van dopvoorbereiding?

As ek reg het.
Jykan jou doppe baie keer anneal sonder skade(na elke skoot)
Wat skade veroorsaak is slegs as jy die dop te warm laat raak omdat ditdie struktuurvan die deeltjies te veel verander

[Riaan Kriel]

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

"The smallest 1000-yard 5-shot group ever shot in IBS competition was done with brass annealed after every firing. So, learning how to anneal the right way is something that can benefit every precision shooter."

Maar te veel, of te lank, annealling is seker nie meer annealling nie maar vernieling van die brass

Edit: Sien nou dit is dieselfde berig wat ek en oom PWV na verwys....

[PWV]

Anneal jy te veel en beskadig maw jou doppe indien jy elke slag anneal as deel van dopvoorbereiding?

As ek reg het.
Jykan jou doppe baie keer anneal sonder skade(na elke skoot)
Wat skade veroorsaak is slegs as jy die dop te warm laat raak omdat ditdie struktuurvan die deeltjies te veel verander

Korrek!

[Capt. Yoda]

Om die case neck te "over anneal" gaan nie baie skade maak nie jy gaan net nie konstante greep op die koels oor al jou doppe kry nie maar die probleem kom in as jy die dop te warem maak/te lank anneal en die hitte verspry na onder dan GAAN jy case head separation kry.