Wats fout met 30 kalibers vir langafstand skiet?

[swc-tr]

Teoreties ja.

Maar al die negatiewe punte wat Bryan ophaal oor die .30kal, geld nog in 'n groter mate vir die .338kal ook. Niemand stry egter oor die aanwending van die .338's vir langafstand nie!

Daar is ook ander faktore wat in aggeneem moet word, wat baie keer gerieflikheidshalwe nie genoem word wanneer iemand 'n sekere standpunt wil bewys.

'n Voorbeeld, met die .30kal kom mens weg met 'n stadiger twist loop, dit help op die lang duur vir meer konstante groeperings agv minder "fouling", ens.

Lees bietjie hierdie vir 'n ander standpunt:

"Thirty Caliber: Still The 1,000 Yard Choice At Camp Perry
By Dave Milosevich
"Where you at, Bobby?" Eric asked.
"I'm on Rodriguez the first two days and Viale the third," Bobby responded.
They were busily comparing notes on their squadding for the National Highpower Rifle
Championship matches. Silence emanated from my corner of the van.
Eric St. John, Bobby DePasque, and I had just completed the 2,450 mile jaunt from Southern
California to Port Clinton, Ohio. With nearly child-like anticipation, we hurried through inprocessing
at the Ohio National Guard's Camp Perry. We wanted to know where (which firing
points) and when (which relays) we would be shooting for the next few days.
While squadding does not normally have a material effect on the outcome of the aggregates, it
can play a part in an individual's performance during a single match. Mostly the effect is
psychological, but occasionally, it can be real. Squadding for the 1,000 yard, Any Rifle-Metallic
Sight event, known as the Leech Cup, looked like it was going to play a role in my performance,
and it was not a favorable role. Hence my silence.
The squadding ticket had a white background with black numbers and, at 10 inches, it was easy
to read that Viale Range, target 112, relay one, was my personalized agenda for Leech Cup day.
Target 112's number-board has a yellow background with black numbers and is, at 1,000 yards,
another reading matter altogether. So much for the "where".
Relay one was scheduled to fire first thing in the morning. This would be before the sun has had
a chance to convert the opaque mist from Lake Erie into translucent live steam. The "when" was
no more encouraging.
Dwelling on the negative is not good preparation for any competitive effort, so my thoughts
turned to the .300 Winchester Magnum in the back of the van. At least if I could find the target
and hold it in the sights, there was no doubt that the rifle would do its part.
* * *
Many highpower shooters, including myself, would not be characterized as innovative. We tend
to cling to what has worked in the past and limit experimentation to the refinement of existing
hardware and technique. Much of the hardware improvement in recent years is the result of
adopting some of the benchrest practices of loading ammunition and assembling rifles. Change
in marksmanship technique is often inspired by something used successfully in international
shooting.
However, there are people out there on the "bleeding edge", trying new ammunition components,
barrel configurations, and indeed, even calibers. While thirty caliber has been the standard for
all phases of conventional highpower since the turn of the century, six and seven millimeter
cartridges have won the National Highpower Championship aggregate several times in the last
few years. This is the "across-the-course" shooting at 200 through 600 yards, iron sights,
different positions, and different rates of fire. It does not include the 1,000 yard or Palma events.
The smaller, high-intensity, cartridges are not yet threatening to replace the .300 Winchester and
.30-.338 Magnums in 1,000 yard prone competition. However, the 7mm Remington Magnum,
6.5mm-.284 Winchester, and 6mm Remington Improved are starting to make their presence
known. What are the perceived benefits of these "sub-caliber" cartridges that cause some to
forsake the security of the known and familiar?
To answer that question, one must first recognize the difference between data and information.
Data is the raw material from which information is extracted. Data tells us something;
information tells us something useful. There is a wealth of data on ballistics, a veritable gold
mine of the stuff in loading manuals, magazines, and books. And if that is not enough, there are
chronographs and, within the reach of some, pressure guns with which we can generate more
data of our own. There are personal computers with ballistics programs that allow the storage,
retrieval, manipulation, and presentation of data. We are blessed with an abundance of data.
What does the data tell us? Well, it hardly takes a Ph.D. in physics to pick up a loading manual
and observe data which suggests that a 7mm Remington Magnum, for example, has a wind
deflection advantage over the .300 Winchester Magnum. Other data shows that the 7mm
Remington Magnum produces less recoil. (All else being equal, optimum bullets, "your mileage
may vary", etc.) Taken together, these bits of data support a conclusion that the 7mm Mag
represents a superior alternative to the .300 Winchester for 1000 yard prone shooting. And that
conclusion would be validated by information from books and magazine articles about how
accurate the cartridge is, how easy it is to load, how popular it is in the general marketplace, and
the fact that it has won a national championship 1,000 yard event at least once.
Why, then, do the .30 caliber magnums still have a virtual lock on the winner's circle? It would
be fair to say that there are more in use, a broader selection of bullets is available, and that more
collective experience exists. All true, but none of these things would stand in the way of a really
superior cartridge for this particular use.
For lack of a better explanation, let's attribute the .30 caliber's sway to, what I'll call, "durability".
While there is little data to quantify this, empirical information supports it. Consider: Thirty
minutes, hot, humid day, no shade. Fire unlimited sighters then twenty consecutive shots for
record. Each bullet is going down a bore that is getting progressively hotter and more fouled
with gilding metal and powder residue from previous shots. At some point the bullet's trip down
the bore is no longer a smooth, constant acceleration from throat to muzzle. At this point, bullets
start impacting outside the group and, in some instances, they disintegrate between the muzzle
and the target. Using loads that are well within safe pressure limits, one can blow up bullets with
a .243 Winchester in this type of shooting! However, disintegrating bullets are far less common
than flyers. And that is part of the problem. The flyers are easier to overlook.
A competitor, distracted by sweat running into the eyes, insects looking for their next meal,
lethargic target service, and a changing wind, manages to shoot fifteen ten's and X's in a row.
The sixteenth shot comes up a 9 at 2 o'clock. The post-shot analysis is apt to be something like
this:
3
"H'mm...must have been a little pick-up (let-off). It would've caught a high 10 if I'd had the wind
right. H'mm...I don't see anything out there to account for it. Come to think of it, that one may
have broke a little right. Try another one, but real careful, like. Maybe a click left. Break it in
the middle."
Mesmerized by a handful of X's or an occasional good match score, shooters rationalize a lot of
flyers. Due to the constraints of time and money, few of us have the opportunity to do much
testing at 1,000 yards. And if we test at shorter ranges, it is unlikely that we shoot twenty to
thirty shot groups. But the problems with high intensity cartridges often do not show up until the
critical combination of heat and fouling has occurred. The .300 Winchester and .30-338 class of
cartridges seems to arrive at that combination of conditions later than the smaller bore-to-casecapacity-
ratio rounds.
* * *
The 1,000 yard prone rifle in the back of the van had shot very well over the last two years but it
had 1,878 rounds through the barrel, well beyond the 1,000 to 1,500 round life expectancy for
this type of shooting and class of cartridge. During a lull in the shooting season, an order placed
with Gary Schneider produced one of his "highpower" barrels. Thirty caliber, naturally, with a
.3077" groove, .300" bore, four lands, and 11" twist, the same brand and configuration as the
barrel being replaced.
I fitted the barrel, using a Henriksen .300 Winchester Magnum reamer with a neck diameter of
.339", a throat diameter of .309", and a 1°, 45' leade angle. Chamber headspace was set to the
SAAMI standard .220". Length of the barrel was cut to 27.5". The 190 Sierra Matchking
touches the lands at about 3.530" of overall cartridge length.
The previous barrel liked a load that would make any reloading component manufacturer's
product liability defense attorney comfortable. Since we do not get many opportunities to test at
1,000 yards, load development consisted of trying the recipe which worked well in the former
barrel, less one grain of powder in deference to a fresh throat, and shooting it in a match. It was
only mildly surprising that the rifle showed a tendency to string shots vertically. Experience has
shown that if all signs indicate mild pressure and no flyers exist other than the vertical stringing,
the load is probably too light. This assumes that the primers are known to be good, the striker
assembly is in good working order, and the basic load has worked well in the past. In other
words, the only relevant variables here were the powder charge weight and a new barrel. The
missing grain of powder was replaced and grouping returned to its former less-than-X-ringelevation.
The final load was virtually identical to the one that had shot well in the previous barrel and, by
the way, in a number of other rifles, to wit:
Case: Winchester, full length sized with shoulder pushed back .002" from the fired dimension.
These particular necks were not turned since they were reasonably uniform out of the box and
there was sufficient clearance in the chamber. The primer pockets were cut to a uniform depth.
Bullet: Sierra 190 grain Matchking, seated .010" short of touching lands.
Primer: Federal 210M "Bench Rest"
Powder: IMR 4350 Sixty seven and one half (67.5), ± 0.1 grains.

A few hours at the loading bench generated 130 rounds of this load. The Hart #2A action, fitted
with a new barrel and glued into the McMillan Anschutz-type prone stock, was now ready for
the trip to Camp Perry.
* * *

As coats and slings are strapped on, the five contestants from the five relays wish each other
good fortune. This is the truly great attraction of our sport. Sure, we want to win, and to do that
we must do better than the competition. But the real competition is within ourselves. There is
simply no time or room within our thoughts to worry about how other shooters are doing during
a match. To be successful here requires one's most intense concentration. The strategy and
supporting tactics are designed to overcome the conditions, not the other competitors.
"Your three minute preparation period will begin when the targets appear," the voice intones;
familiar words that evoke a sense of purpose. Thoughts of spectators, silver tankards, and
fifteenth place are replaced with concerns about what to use for a sight zero. There is no 1,000
yard history in the zero book, since the rear sight was newly installed just prior to leaving for
Camp Perry. This morning's misbegotten sight picture renders the current settings suspect. The
elevation is probably close enough to be on paper, so I will take off this morning's estimated
wind, add a minute right to compensate for the earlier sight picture and call that zero wind. I'd
better get some dry firing in while we are still in prep time.
"...all ready on the firing line," the voice speaks for us. The morning's gloom has turned into a
sunny and warm afternoon. The mirage is now running right to left and is clearly visible across
the faces of the number boards in the spotting scope. As the targets rise into view, I close the
bolt on the first sighter round and count 11 clicks on the windage knob.
The trigger breaks cleanly and the rifle obeys Newton's third law of motion. I quickly move my
head from cheekpiece to eyepiece to see if wind has changed and await the marking of the target,
but the target does not move. Silently I beg the puller to find the hole and consider calling for a
"mark". No...the target is going down...I really should start breathing again. The target is
elevated and marked with a 6 at 8 o'clock near the edge of the frame. A 6?!?! I must have the
wind knob off by a revolution with all the..."Stop!", shouts Reason. "It does not matter...it is on
paper and you can now make an informed sight correction," Logic continues. "Right," I audibly
concur.
Come three minutes right, one minute up and re-start the process. A 9 at 4:30. Two clicks up
and one left. A 9 at 3 o'clock? "You're not paying attention," cautions Concentration. "You
can't ignore the wind while you are playing with your zeros," chimes in Discipline. "Right
again," I mutter looking into the spotting scope and seeing the let-up. A glance at the flags
confirms that 3 clicks will need to come off the windage. If this next one is in the middle, I can
be confident that the wind zero is close to 7 clicks left of where it is right now. That may be
important later if the wind switches around to the left.
The wind has stabilized. Take off the 3 clicks and go. An X, for the first record shot. Close the
bolt, acquire the target,...the drumbeat of the checklist resumes. Another X, followed by two
10's and an X, and we are halfway home.
The target has been down for what seems like an awfully long time. The seventh record round is
lying in the loading port awaiting the raised target as a cue to be on its way. "What is going
on?", I wonder. Then it dawns on me. They are plugging the hole. The bullet has struck very
near a scoring ring and the puller has summoned a pit officer to confirm the value. OK, fine, but
which ring is it near?!!

The puller and pit officer are going as fast as they can and there is nothing I can do to speed the
decision. Watch the wind...it is starting to pick back up. Finally, the target returns to view with
a 10, just off the X line at 6 o'clock. It does not matter to them that X's do not count. However,
better to be conscientious than cavalier when marking targets.
Add two clicks into the wind and shoot. A 10 on the left side. Good, now back into the rhythm.
Three more tens for a 90 out of 90. The wind has steadied but could pick up more before it lets
off, based on the cycle it has followed thus far. "Don't blow this one," chirps Chaos.
I decide to take advantage of the steady condition and get the last shot off before anything
changes. As fast as I can get off the scope and on the rifle, the aiming black is centered in the
front aperture. Double check cant, sight alignment, and start squeezing. I can feel the breeze
picking up. This is taking too long. Do it now!
* * *
The rifle got in the last word. Looking into the spotting scope a full second before the puller
heard the crack of the bullet, I could see that the wind had indeed picked up. It was going to be
on the left side and it was going to be close. The target had hardly touched bottom before it was
on its way back up and I knew it would be a 10. The puller's rhythm had not been broken.
However, I still did not know the outcome. Though I had shot a "clean" score, (no dropped
points) other shooters could have, too, putting us into sudden death. Fellow shoot-off
competitors A.C. Webster, Jeff Larosa, Eric Pintard, and Tom Whitaker are all outstanding long
range shots, and I was not about to assume that the match had been decided.
As I rose from the mat, Tom Whitaker was the first to offer congratulations. Still uncertain, I
turned to my score keeper, Noma Zinsmaster, herself an outstanding long range shooter, and
asked who had won. She responded with a big smile and a thumbs-up, and that is when I knew.
On the following day, the Wimbledon Cup (Any Rifle-Any Sight, 1,000 yards) was won by a
true long range champion, dear friend and all-around great person, Nancy Tompkins. She used a
long-necked .30-338, which is a .300 Winchester with the shoulder pushed back to duplicate the
powder capacity of the standard .30-338. Shooting a Model 70 Winchester, using 200 grain
Sierra Matchkings and IMR 4350 powder, Nancy handily won with a 200-13X in the match and
a 100-6X in the shoot-off.
One other thirty caliber true-believer deserves mention here. Eric Pintard shot his .308
Winchester Palma rifle in the Leech Cup, achieving the high score on his relay while competing
shoulder-to-shoulder with magnums of all descriptions.
The .300 Winchester Magnum offered a good example of "durability" on scope (Wimbledon)
day. Unfortunately, I did not prove as durable. After shooting a 199-14X in the Wimbledon and
a 198-9X in the Herrick Trophy team match, I lent the rifle to Eric Pintard, who shot a 200-13X
in the Herrick while being coached by Noma Zinsmaster. Counting sighters, the rifle shot 78
rounds, without cleaning, and was still hammering the X ring. The 3 dropped points out of a
possible 600 were the result of wetware (human brain) malfunctions and had nothing to do with
the hardware.

Durable, good-natured, and forgiving of abuse, I'll stick with a thirty to do the heavy lifting
around my firing point.
Hold 'em and squeeze 'em.
Dave Milosevich
237 Virginia Place
Costa Mesa, CA 92627-1821
Telephone: 714-722-8323"

Ek se nie die .30kal is die beste of al wat daar is nie, gee net nog 'n ander standpunt.
Ek skiet en gebruik self 6.5mm, 7mm en .30kal, dis maar meer 'n geval van "horses for course"

[James Wilson]

Ludwig, hierdie opskrif het sommer dadelik myoog gevang. Ek het vinnig deur dit gelees, weetnie of ek bo oor dit gegaan het nie, maar verwys hulle in die artikel na terminal energy? Dit lyk of hulle van net kompetisie skiet praat.?

[James Wilson]

Ok, wil nie nou hier hi jack nie. Sal wel graag later wil hoor wat is jou opinie tov energie van die 284 vs jou 300?

[swc-tr]

[quote="Ludwig"]Ek kry gereeld manne wat vir my vra hoekom nie een van die 30 kalibers vir langafstand skiet nie? Wel, dis 'n eenvoudige vraag, met taamlike komplekse verduidliking, en in hierdie artikel dink ek, het Bryan Litz dit baie mooi opgesom. Ja, ek weet ons nationale F-klas span eksperimenteer met die 300WSM, maar daar is nog geen nuus dat hy werklik beter doen as die 6.5 of 7mm's nie.

Ter inligting, in die VSA het Shiraz Balolia, kaptein van die VSA F-Ope span, sopas die 2013 Berger Southwest Longe Range Nationals gewen met 'n .................... (wag vir dit ) .300WSM! Hier is die link: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/

Op eie bodem is die SA F-Ope span hard besig om hul .300WSM's gereed te kry vir die 2013 wêreld kampioenskappe later vanjaar in die VSA.
Hier is 'n foto van 'n 3-skoot groep op 300m deur Nicky Fourie, met Kallie Witthaus se .300WSM met 210gr Berger VLD's tydens lading ontwikkeling, hardloop so 2930fps. Die geweer gebruik 'n Krieger 1-11" twist loop, Nesika Bay aksie, NF NXS 8-32 scope, en 'n barrel block as bedding.

10022013331_2.jpg

[swc-tr]

Hulle besluit nog, sover my kennis.
Die span kyk na verskeie koeëls vanaf die 208 Hornady A-Max en swaarder gewigte en ander fabrikate, veral die nuwe swaar Berger Hybrids.
Die uiteindelike keuse sal gemaak word op grond van watter koeël die beste werk in die span se gewere. Hoë BC is baie belangrik, maar nie die enigste oorweging nie.

Terloops, die .300WSM is reeds so vroeg soos 2004 in die RSA gebruik om die SA F-klas nasionale kampioenskap mee te wen, met 210gr berger VLD's!

[jjmare]

En toe antwoord Brain Litz sy eie vraag met die 230gr OTM Hybird... ek skiet hulle uit n 300WM (die 230gr is spesifiek vir die M24 in 300WM ontwerp) @ 2600fps (Remington Sendero). Dit sit die WM verseker in n ander klas (in sekere opsigte ballisties baie naby aan 338lm) Ek hou baie van die WSM maar dit is ontwerp vir "carbine" lengte lope en dit sal in daardie verpakking altyd beter as n WM presteer, maar die WM met tenminste n 26" loop doen uitstekend met die swaarder punte.