R1 (7.62mm Nato) ammunisie in .308Win

[Brno308 jagter]

Hi Daar Manne

Kan enige van julle dalk vir my se of dit veilig is om R1 (7.62mm Nato) ammunisie soos ons almal dit ken wat gedien het in die SAW, in 'n standaard .308Win jaggeweer te skiet.

Indien enige, wat is die verskille en nadele om hierdie patrone in 'n .308Win af te vuur.?

Groete

Brno 308 Jagter.

[Nico Harris]

ek het gehoor dat die weermag patrone gelaai is tot n hoer druk.(60 000psi). as dit waar ia sal dit meer stremming op jou geweer plaas. maar dis maar net wat ek gehoor het. ek het ook gehoor dat die ouens in Aus die punte omdraai om n soft nose te skep om ferrel donkeys mee te skiet. het die laas genoemde al probeer - en hulle wou nie groepeer nie.

groete

nico

[Brno308 jagter]

Hi Harris

Dankie vir die inligting, ek het self gehoor van 'n ou wat met 'n 308 Win, 'n R1 ronte geskiet het en die gevolg was dat die kolf gebars het van die hoe druk..

Maar soos ek se dit het gebeur met 'n vriend se vriend, so of dit waar is weet ek nie.

Daarom sal ek graag by mede 308 eienaars wil hoor oor die mite.. en of dit veilig is om dit te doen. Ek dink daaraan om met die R1 rontes 'n vriend te gaan help jakkelse skiet in die Vrystaat.

Ek wag vir julle replies kerels..??

Groete

Brno

[Robert]

Brno

Voor ek begin herlaai het , het ek net militere ammo in my geweer gebruik om ongediertes te beheer. Ek kan nie sien dat y .308 enige skade gekry het nie, terloops het die groot bisly manne eers in die jare 90's begin herlaai en het altyd weermag ammo gebruik. Onthou nog hoe ek my pa se bruin karton ammo bokksies moes uitklas in lott nommers en dan sorg dat daar nie verskilende lott boksies Saterdag oggend in sy skietkas was as ons op die baan aankom nie.

Die army rondtes is maar 155gr PMP punte en is lekker warm gelaai vir 900m skote. Jakkie se kind gaan net 'n erenstige brand gevoel kry en later loop vrek as hy nie reg geskiet raak nie.

Robert

[JOHANNIC]

Robert, het jy al daardie koeels geweeg ek dink hulle is 143gr fmj en hulle is n bietjie warmer as wat jy dit normaalweg sal laai,ek het ook heelwat van hulle in my .308 geskiet,en hier by ons skiet die meeste manne dit in hulle "plank" gewere,no problems

Brno jy kan maar laat loop met die Magnus ammo,geniet dit

groete johan

(o ja die met die + teken op(langs die primer) is beter/konstant gelaai en gee beter groepe)

[Danie Lombard .243]

Hallo manne.

Ek wil ook 'n eier le.
Ons moet vir Francois vra om op die net die verskillende kamerdruk specs te kry, die .308 win vs. die 7,62 nato.

Wat ek wel weet is dat die 7,62 nato se kamerdruk, gemeet met die copper crusher tegniek, laer is as die van die .308 win.
As ek reg kan onthou sommer 'n hele paar duisend psi minder. Die 7,62 se kamer is ook net effens korter as die .308, maar nou praat ons van duisendes van 'n duim. Die 7,62 nato is dus nie veronderstel om moelikheid te maak in 'n .308 kamer nie.
MAAR as jou .308 kamer effens te styf gesny is kan daar dalk moelikheid kom.
Die 7,62 met 143gr punte is lekker vinnig galaai en dus maak die slot soms effe styf oop. As die skoot afgaan word die dop se gat lekker styf gepleitster teen die boltface.

Die saw tipe patroon met 143gr punte is nie baie bakend vir hul akkuraatheid nie.
Die aplikasie waarvoor hul gebruik was het die die nodigheid geregverdig om 1 moa te lewer nie.
Die Bisley ouens van ouds het met ammo geskiet wat vir hul gelaai was deur denel/krygkor,maar die ammo is spesiaal vir hul doel gelaai en was veel meer akkuraat as die normale battle 7,62 ammo.

Danie

[tafjak]

Brno

Ek dink daaraan om met die R1 rontes 'n vriend te gaan help jakkelse skiet in die Vrystaat.

As jy kwaad vir die vriend is, ja, gaan skiet die goed daarmee. As jy nie kwaad is nie en het nie iets anders om mee te skiet nie, doen sommer die bestuurwerk.

Ek sien trek lekker been!

[Louis Kriel]

Hi Daar Manne

Kan enige van julle dalk vir my se of dit veilig is om R1 (7.62mm Nato) ammunisie soos ons almal dit ken wat gedien het in die SAW, in 'n standaard .308Win jaggeweer te skiet.

Indien enige, wat is die verskille en nadele om hierdie patrone in 'n .308Win af te vuur.?

Groete

Brno 308 Jagter.

Dis heeltemal veilig om in jou jaggeweer te skiet.  Ek het dit vir jare in 'n Enfield .308 gebruik Die Enfield is bekend/berug daarvoor dat sy aksie nie baie sterk is nie. Nogtans het hy die SAW 7.62 ammo soos soetkoek gegeet! Dis baie lekker vir teiken skiet. Moet asseblief nie daarmee jag nie. Skerppunt ammo is 'n seker manier om 'n bok te kwes.

[Francois Marais]

Danie/ Die manne wat lus is vi lees.

Hier is twee manne wat weet wavan hulle praat se opinies. (Sorry vi di Janky)

By Jim Bullock
I have pressure tested thousands of rounds of ammo in many different calibers both professionally (years ago) and more recently using the facilities of the Canadian Gov't (Explosives Branch) and Expro (maker of IMR powder).
While I don't like sweeping statements, in 308/7.62 I have found that although the specifications have very similar maximum acceptable pressures, the military ammo is usually "hotter".
Commercial ammo tends to run a round 55,000 psi while I have seen some lots of military running around 60,000 psi. (Same pressure gun, observed in the same pressure testing project.)
Ammo specifications can be miss-leading. Military ammo is usually quoted using the CUP system whereas commercial ammo is quoted in psi. The actual pressure maximums are about the same, but the numbers are about 5,000 units apart. This can create the illusion that the military is lower pressure.
The military know what rifles the ammo will be used in and have a guarantee that the rifles will be in good shape. Commercial companies worry about lawsuits. There are rifles in poor condition, miss-matched bolts, unsuitable actions, etc. The last 50 feet per second will cost about 5,000 psi. As a commercial loader I would trade off 50 fps for the safety of 5,000 less pressure, any time. Although commercial ammo can be loaded to 60,000 psi the companies I have discussed this with tell me they don't like to go beyond 57,000 and 55,000 is what they prefer.
The military brass is heavier than commercial brass. I load 308 in commercial brass that weighs 157 grains. I load 7.62 in brass that weighs 195 grains. (I happen to have a large quantity of both types). Since the outside dimensions are the same, we know the internal capacity of the 7.62 case is less because of an extra 38 grains of brass. The powder capacity is very different and the pressure/velocity results of the two are so different I have to treat them as quite different calibers. The light brass can use a larger powder charge and obtain higher velocity at the same peak pressure. The peak pressure of a 308 and a 3006 are the same. The difference is powder capacity. More powder translates to more energy and more velocity. To a lesser extent, the same thing is true of 308 vs. 7.62
Commercial ammo seldom exploits the larger case capacity. In practice I find the military ammo loaded fairly "hot" and commercial ammo is less than max pressure.
Pressure being equal, the military brass offers a significant safety factor. Some actions have chambers with less head support than others, so a thick head is important.
When loading for 303 British the same thing is true about brass weight. Military brass is heavier. Segregate your brass, military vs. commercial and use 2 grains less powder in the military. If you load 3 to 5 grains less than the max powder charge shown in the book you will find the brass lasts much longer. 20 reloads instead of 3 to 5. Just neck size the first quarter inch of the neck, if it is to be shot again in the same rifle.
The suggestion about shooting over a chronograph is an interesting one. If the bullet weight is the same, higher velocity equates to higher pressure, but only if the brass is the same. As I have explained, 308 and 7.62 brass is not the same.
The Hornady Light Magnum ammo I have shot in 308 (both production and experimental) offers significantly higher velocity (around 200 fps) for ordinary pressures (around 55,000 psi). This is accomplished by using a very large charge of compressed slow ball powder. They stuff a 3006 load of slow ball powder into a 308 case. Don't try this at home. You can't do it.
In conclusion, commercial ammo probably has lower pressure than military. Military is safe if the rifle is in good shape. Hornady Light Magnum has unremarkable pressure and I would not hesitate to use it any rifle in good shape.
Handloading and down loading 100 to 200 fps is much easier on the rifle, the brass and the shoulder and is still perfectly fine for punching paper out to 600 yards (about 500 yards farther than is usually required.)

Jim Bullock
About the author:
Jim Bullock is the grandson and son of rifle shooting competitors. Jim started with a BB gun (a daisy pump) in 1950 and received his first .22 at age 10.
He has represented Canada twelve times as a member of the Canadian rifle Team as a shooter, Coach and Team Captain.
His fullbore rifle shooting started in 1960 using the Lee Enfield #4 in 303 caliber in what was known as Service Rifle (B). That was a well-tuned rifle with a Parker Hale 5C rear sight and the standard post front sight. SR (B) was deliberate (no snap, or rapid fire) at 200 to 1,000 yards. His best shot was a pair of bullseyes fired at 1,000 yards with a 26 minute wind change between shots (that is about 260 inches or about 21 feet of windchange).
He has an extensive firearm collection including a dozen or so Lee Enfields.

En nou n ander man se weergawe:

.308 Win vs. 7.62?51?The Straight Scoop
Before we go much further, we want to address the oft-posed question ?Are the .308 Winchester and 7.62?51 NATO one and the same?? The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62?51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win ?Go Gauge? is 1.630? vs. 1.635? for the 7.62?51. The .308?s ?No-Go? dimension is 1.634? vs. 1.6405? for a 7.62?51 ?No Go? gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62?51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical).
Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: ?[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn?t to the .308 ?headspace? dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule.? You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62?51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max. For more information on this interesting topic, read the following articles: Gun Zone?s 30 Caliber FAQ; Cruffler.com Technical Trivia, June 2001; and last, but not least, Steve Redgwell?s .308 vs 7.62?51 Analysis, which really provides a definitive explanation. Reloaders should also note that military ammo often is made with a thicker web. Consequently the case capacity of 7.62?51 brass is usually less than that of commercial .308 brass. You may need to reduce recommended .308 Winchester loads by as much as 2 full grains, if you reload with military 7.62?51 brass, such as Lake City or IMI.

So da het julle dit, da is n verskil, ma nie rerig genoeg om probleme te gee nie.

My eie ondervinding, ek het n 308 loop opgeskiet met militere doppe en kruit wat ek se punte getrek en met 125gr Sierras en 130 gr Hornady punte vervang het, sonder om die kruit oor te weeg. Het nie eers nodig gehad om zero te verander tussen die twee punte nie. Het juis na n ligter punt gegaan omdat ek ook gevind het die lading (druk) is n bietjie hoog op 150 gr punte.

My 2c..........

Mooi loop
Francois

[Brno308 jagter]

Hi Manne

Dankie vir al die terugvoer, ek leer baie by julle ouens.

Ek het by 'n vriend 'n tracer gekry vir 'n R1, het enige van julle dalk al so patroon geskiet in 'n 308 Win net vir interessantheid onthalwe.?

Daar is baie mites oor die R1 maar een van dit is dat daai staalpunt regdeur 'n treinspoor kon skiet.? Kan enige van julle die mite bevestig.?

Groete

Brno

[Janjak]

Brno,
eendag op n skietdag het een van die ouens met so tracer die gras aan die brand geskiet.
as die gras droog is en julle is lus vir vuurslaan kan daai een werk.

[Brno308 jagter]

Janjak..

Ek gaan beslis daai ene try volgende keer.. HaHa..

Ek dink daar is darm maar 'n paar manne wat bitter negetief sal wees as ek dit probeer..HaHa..

Brno

[JOHANNIC]

As jy baie van die ammo het en nie weet watter is armor nie vat n magneet en beweeg oor die koeels/punte die harde baarde sal opspring

En ja hulle skiet soos honeymoon deur die panser gonge

groete johan

[Robert]

Jonannic

Jy is reg. Hulle is 143gr fmj. Die manne wat nou vir plank geweer laai gebruik meestal 155 palmas.

Robert

[KSV]

Daai Tracer besigheid, het 'n Oom by ons op die baan R2000 gekos na die vuurslanery, toe almal nou lekker dors was, in die Watergat.

Hein

[Louis Kriel]

Hi Manne

Dankie vir al die terugvoer, ek leer baie by julle ouens.

Ek het by 'n vriend 'n tracer gekry vir 'n R1, het enige van julle dalk al so patroon geskiet in 'n 308 Win net vir interessantheid onthalwe.?

Daar is baie mites oor die R1 maar een van dit is dat daai staalpunt regdeur 'n treinspoor kon skiet.? Kan enige van julle die mite bevestig.?

Groete

Brno

Maak jou geweer BAIE mooi skoon nadat jy tracers geskiet het.

[Brno308 jagter]

Dirty Odd Six...

Is dit omdat daai skrapnell van die tracer in jou loop vas sit.?

Brno

[222]

Het die nou die aand raakgelees. Wou dit ook probeer maar ek is te lief vir my geweer:

308 Winchester
This is the sporting version of the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge. As had most previously standardized military chamberings, it was expected that this number would quickly become a popular hunting chambering; therefore, Winchester moved rapidly to introduce a commercial version. Hence, in 1952, within one year of adoption of the 7.62x51mm by NATO, the 308 Winchester was born. The purpose of the military version was to create a more compact cartridge that could take advantage of newer propellants and, therefore, still match performance of the original 30-06 military loading, while providing a faster cyclic rate potential in machineguns. In addition, since the cartridge was smaller and lighter, the soldier could carry more rounds, which was no small consideration. As a bonus, the 308 has proven to have excellent accuracy potential and many target shooters in several disciplines therefore favor it. Since 308 cartridges properly fit the magazine of short-action guns, and yet deliver almost as much velocity as the 30-06 with light- to medium-weight bullets, it has become one of the most popular hunting cartridges, worldwide. However, case capacity and cartridge overall length are not well suited to use with bullets exceeding about 180 grains. Therefore, many agree that the 308 is a bit light for use against the largest and most dangerous of North American species, such as the biggest bears. An important note: The 308 Winchester is not entirely identical to the 7.62x51mm NATO, owing to differences in tolerances; therefore, some
commercial rifles will not handle military ammunition

[tobie]

308
Ek skiet ook teiken met die R1 patrone.ek het nog nie n herlaai stel nie.So baie goed koop, maar kry so nou en dan 1 wat dalk te vinnig of stadig is.Kannie agter kom dat dit my loop eet nie.Maar het gehoor die tracer verkort die loop lewe.Ek het al n blesbok 3 kop skote geskiet (wat n jagter gekes het) wat so val met soft points....so ek beveel dit ook nie aan vir jag nie.ek skiet wel gaanse,bobejane ens met dit.

tobie

[Louis Kriel]

Dirty Odd Six...

Is dit omdat daai skrapnell van die tracer in jou loop vas sit.?

Brno

Tracers het 'n hol basis wat gevul word met die poeier wat bestaan uit of magnesium of fosfor of Strontium nitraat.  Die dryfmiddel steek hierdie "poeier" aan die brand as die patroon gevuur word. Dit brand baie warm in jou loop en is "corrosive".  Chinese tracers het selfs Barium sout in wat roes kan veroorsaak as dit nie gereeld skoongemaak word nie.

[Francois Marais]

30-06

Strontium nitraat.

Noggie van hom gehoor nie, vertel bietjie meer.........................

Mooi loop
Francois

[Brno308 jagter]

Hi Manne..

Kan mens nog daai R1 (7.62mm) rontes koop direk by PMP met 'n 308Win lisensie?

Weet julle of die manne wat die .308Win gebruik vir skerpskut ook staalpunte gebruik of gebruik hulle loodpunte.?

Groete

Brno

[Izak H]

Ek het op `n tyd R1 rondtes se punte uit getrek en sagte punte in gesit vir jag, dit het nogal goed gewerk. Ek het dieselfde kruit gebruik, net geweeg soos gewoonlik vir herlaai om die beste lading te kry.
Izak

[Louis Kriel]

30-06

Strontium nitraat.

Noggie van hom gehoor nie, vertel bietjie meer.........................

Mooi loop
Francois

Strontium nitrate Sr(NO3)2 is an acid salt of strontium. It is used as an oxidizer and colorant in fireworks.

[Francois Marais]

30-06

Thanks

Mooi loop
Frtancois