Knaldemper effek op kroon

[raychell]

Het iemand al 'n nadelige effek op hul kroon agtergekom met die gebruik van 'n knaldemper? Ek praat nou van langdurige gebruik van die knaldemper. Die vraag is meer op die manne gerig wat baie skiet.
Raynie

[Armand Steenkamp]

Ek luister saam. Wonner self

[Christo]

Raycell, ek haal my KD's nie af as 'n reel. Kom wel agter dat wanneer ek my gewere die slag skoonmaak die kroon besonders baie aangepak is. Praat nou van so 200+ skote. Gewoonlik het ek dan die koper ook uitgehaal en alles skoongemaak, dan so paar skote geskiet vir fouling en elke keer verbeel dat die groepe beter is as voor skoonmaak, maar die koper die skuld gegee. Jou vraag laat my nou wonder of die kroon se aanpak nie ook effek het nie.

Ek kon nog nie sien, 1000+ skote, dat die kroon beskadig nie.

Die slegste wat ek wel ondervind is op my 243 waar die draad te lank gesny is op nie loop dat nie KD nie wil afskroef as gevolg van die aanpak nie. Laaste keer KD met bobbejaan spanner moes afdraai.

[raychell]

Dankie Christo
Die aanpaksil kan skoongemaak word, ek is meer geintereseerd in die verandering in loop se interne demensies.Die laaste maand het ek twee gewere gemeet wat gerek het onder die skroefdraad met gepaartgaande verlies van akuraatheid. Die een 'n .308 met M13x1 groef en die ander 'n .223 met M12x1 groef. Die druk in die loop het blykbaar die staal se elastisiteit oorskry en die gedeelte het permanent gerek.Die .308 was 'n Musgrave en die .223 'n Remington.
Raynie

[Alwin]

As die loop se binne-diameter rek onder die skroefdraad, is dit waarskynlik agv resspannings in die staal, wat ontspan het nadat die materiaal verwyder is. Dit behoort tydens die snyproses, of onmiddelik daarna te gebeur. As ons kyk hoe dik die materiaal onder die skroefdraad is, in verhouding tot die druk in die loop, wanneer die koeël daar kom, is dit baie onwaarskynlik dat die loop agv druk sal rek.

Gaan kyk gerus hoe dik is die loopwande op "drilling"-gewere, wat bv. 'n 30-06 loop onder dubbel 12 boor lope het. Die 30-06 loop se wanddikte is minder as 2mm by die tromp. (Die loop is ook teen die rib vasgesit, hang nie vry nie.)

Die dikte van 'n "normale" geweer se loop, voor by die tromp, is so dik om stabiliteit (traagheid) te verskaf. Kan ook help om te voorkom dat die loop buig. As jy die KD se skroefdraad te klein sny, kan dit dalk die loop verswak, sodat hy kan buig agv 'n stamp teen die KD ens. Ek glo nie druk is 'n faktor nie.

[LUAN]

Ek kyk nou na die huntbuddy en sien dat sy eerste baffel(wasser) ver van die kroon af is. Dit laat my dink dat die ontwerp sal maak dat die warm gasse nie so ver terugdruk na die kroon toe wat die kroon kan laat verweer nie. Sal bietjie kyk of die kroon ook so vuil word soos met ander kd.

[WILLEBEES]

Dag manne
Die KD op my 300WM het onlangs gefaal - 'n baffle gebreek binnekant en die skrapnel voor uitgeblaas.
Ek vermoed die baffles was te dun vir die 300WM, my verskaffer het onderneem om dit kosteloos te herstel en dikker baffles in te sit.
Die materiaal wat gebruik is, is aircraft grade aluminium.
Ek het nog nooit probleme gehad om die KD af te skroef nie.
Wat ek wil weet is hoe gereeld (na hoeveel skote) behoort 'n KD skoongemaak te word en hoe doen julle dit?
Groetnis

[raychell]

.338LM
In beide gevalle het die akuraatheid lank "baie skote" na die opsit verswak so ek glo nie dit het na die sny gebeur nie
Raynie

[Armand Steenkamp]

Willebees, Pm my asb die naam van jou demper wat gevaal het.

Groetnis

[Alwin]

.338LM
In beide gevalle het die akuraatheid lank "baie skote" na die opsit verswak so ek glo nie dit het na die sny gebeur nie
Raynie

Dit sal dalk goed wees om die koperaanpaksel te verwyder. Dit maak nogal so. Een van my gewere het erge aanpaksel gehad, wat ek nie met (verskeie) koper-oplosmiddels kon uitkry nie. Ek moes toe "Brillo" en oplosmiddel, om die beurt, gebruik. Nou skiet hy weer baie mooi.

Ek hoor dat die kroon glo verweer met 'n KD. Ek sien die kroon kry 'n aanpaksel. Miskien is dit die onoordeelkundige skoonmaak van die aanpaksel, wat die kroon verweer? Dit kan tog nie gelyktydig aanpak en verweer nie?

Baie mense gebruik "bore snakes". As die ding stof en vuilgoed opgetel het, raak hy nogal 'n goeie skuurmiddel. Trek hom nou skeef deur jou kroon en siedaar.

Ons raai seker maar almal, oor wat daar gebeur. Het nog nie meetbare inligting gesien oor die tipe toestande nie.

[johan]

Raynie,die korrekte metode om n draad te sny behels dat daar ten MINSTE n 1mm rant op die loop oorbly waarteen die KD kan vasskop,maw op bv n 16mm draad moet die loop ten minste 18mm wees. Het al n paar gesien wat die KD verby hierdie stop gegaan het(bv n 16mm draad op n 17mm loop,mav die skouer is net .5mm ) en oor die loop begin klim het,nie veel nie maar dit veroorsaak n wurg effek op daardie deel van die loop en kan baie duidelik aan die binnekant van die loop waargeneem word.Die ander probleem is as jy n toolout groef sny waar die draad stop net voor die skouer,daar kan jy ook soms n ring van binne waarneem,soos die staal gerek het.(net as die staal daar dan reeds dun is)
Normaalweg verweer enige loop wat n KB op het ook van voor soos die gasse terugblaas in die loop in(die kroon en die eerste 10-15mm) en baie meer so met n reflex tipe KD.
Ek sou reken dat in jou geval die staal nie gerek het nie maar die loop effe begin verweer het vanaf die kroon.
Soos die foto aandui is die skouer lekker breed en daar is geen toolout groef nie.

[Eugene]

Ek glo dat 'n KD jou kroon kan verweer en jou looplewe kan verkort, vir die redes reeds hierbo en op ander topics genoem. Hoeveel en hoe vinnig, is egter nog nooit konkreet bepaal nie.... As dit 50 skote, of selfs 100 skote minder is as normaalweg, is dit nie vir my so sleg nie! Wat wel van belang is (in my opinie) by die gebruik van 'n KD, is dat jy jou loop meer gereeld en korrek moet skoonmaak. Ek dink verkeerde skoonmaak tegnieke gaan 'n groter invloed op jou loop (en kroon...) lewe hê as 'n KD...

Ek kan altyd nog 'n loop opsit of nuwe kroon sny, maar ek het ongelukkig net 2 ore for life....

[Francois Marais]

Raynie

Het jy dalk hierdie verskynsel ook by dukker lope gekry, Lope met 16mm en groter skroepdraad vir KD????

Wonder hoekom nie???

Mooi loop
Francois

[raychell]

Francois
Nee, nog net die twee ek dink persoonlik die skroefdraad was te klein vir die kaliber. Wat ek wel met die Borescope kan sien is dat die voorste deel van die loop baie vining verweer soos in Johan se foto .Beide die gewere het gewone "Can" sort knaldempers gebruik die .223 Rem het minder as 'n jaar gehou.
Eugene
Dit verkort defnitief looplewe met meer as 100 skote moontlik baie meer , Loop vervang is nie meer so goedkoop nie en ook darem nie nodig nie sny net die 17mm af, kroon oor en siedaar hy skiet weer.
Ek dink net dit is belangrik om die skroefdraad so dik as moontlik te hou ek dink 'n halwe mm per kant vir 'n skouer is genoeg. Sorry Johan die knaldempers wat ek mee te doen het stop baie posetief teen 'n halwe mm
Raynie

[Silent Hunting]

Raynie,

Persoonlik werk ek op 'n minimum skouer van .75mm. Vind dat as die draad reg gesny is op beide, werk hy heel goed.

Groete,

Henk

[johan]

Ek seg weer: maak dit n 1mm rand rondom OF dra die gevolge na n jaar of twee se gebruik,dalk gouer.

[Silent Hunting]

Johan,

Daar is moontlik waarheid in wat jy se, maar ek sny liewers iets soos Howa 'n 14mm draad met .8? Skouer as wat ek hom 13mm sny net sodat die skouer meer as 1mm is. As jou kd lekker pas en hy is altyd vas as jy skiet, sal hy hou.

Henk

[johan]

Toegegee .8 is aanvaarbaar.

[johan]

Party lope se diameter is egter te klein en behoort nie n Kd op te kry nie.

[Silent Hunting]

Het nog nooit "draad" gesien wat "gebuig" het nie, maar glo dit is seker moontlik met van die groot swaar kds in die mark op dunner/ kleiner skroefdraad. Tien teen een sal dit nooit gebeur nie, maar hoe sal mens weet.

[johan]

Die draad buig nie, dit rek.

[Silent Hunting]

Hitte en metaal is maar 'n bok en 'n bok is 'n .........

[Francois Marais]

Raynie

Nee, nog net die twee ek dink persoonlik die skroefdraad was te klein vir die kaliber.

En daar is die hele verklaring......

Mooi loop
Francois

[F.L.A.S.H]

Good day everyone

here is an interesting read with regards to silencers that I have posted before but cant seem to find.

hope you find it interesting and insightful

Here is an article written by Bernie Sharp who is the designer and manufacturer of the following suppressorsHope you find the article as informative and helpful as I didSUPPRESSORS OR SILENCERS AS WE KNOW THEMINTRODUCTIONSuppressors for use on a firearm is not a new topic by any means, but the number of such devices which are becoming used by the general shooting populous is growing by the day in these modern times.While there are many manufacturers of such devices to be found anywhere in the world today, the majority are used by Armed Forces where the ability to reduce the sound of a weapon being discharged is paramount in an effort to conceal the whereabouts of the shooter.There is a new breed of users of such devices that is coming to the fore in today’s modern era of the firearm fraternity and that is the average Joe Soap everyday businessman or woman who owns a rifle or two and is an avid fan of shooting and hunting.More and more too are the number of game farmers and outlets that provide hunting facilities to this growing number of hunting clientele who are realising that the game on their facilities is less disturbed during the hunting season by hunters who have opted to use such a device on their rifle.In consequence, there are a growing number of these hunting facilities that prefer the use of suppressors on their properties by visiting hunters on the one hand, and on the other there are a growing number of rifle owners, especially those who own the larger calibres, who are finding that the use of a suppressor makes the firing of these large calibre rifles a more comfortable experience due to the reduced recoil while at the same time experiencing less damage to their hearing as well as the ears of those in close proximity to them at the time of discharge of the rifle.It is to this group of people and to those who are intending to use such a device at some stage in the future that I wish to direct this discourse. While I am just another humble dedicated hunter, I have been involved with the shooting fraternity in the RSA for some forty odd years, going through such disciplines as Practical Pistol shooting, Large Bore Bisley shooting and of course hunting when the opportunity and cash flow made it possible.As an avid fan and an involved member of the sport I have come to realise that while these devices provide many significant advantages to the shottist, there are some drawbacks to using such a device which many rifle owners seem to be blissfully unaware of until their trusty old piece that used to hit a R2.00 coin every shot at 100 meters now begins to begin to spread their shots in a pattern more akin to their favourite 12 Gauge shotgun.I therefore began to investigate this phenomenon for my personal interest and because I owned a few of these ‘loudenboomer’ rifles myself and had begun to find that a 60 plus year old shoulder seemed to be protesting more and more with the passing of time. On top of this, my local Aviation Medical Practitioner was dressing me down every year at my annual medical because my hearing test was getting closer and closer to the point where I would no longer be able to fly if present trends continued.Below are my findings and experience which I pass on to those who are interested with the hope that this information will be able to help you to make the correct decision if you are leaning towards the fitting of such a device to your much beloved and trusted ‘firestick’.NOISE RELATED TO DISCHARGING A RIFLEThere are five major categories of noise generated when discharging a rifle. In order of timing these are:· Action noise required to ignite the round.· Muzzle blast resulting from the discharge of propellant gas from the end of the barrel.· The sonic signature of the projectile in flight (supersonic velocity rounds).· Action noise in some firearm variants as the spent case is discharged and a fresh round reloaded.· The impact noise created as the projectile finds terminal impact.The two loudest sounds in a gunshot are typically the muzzle blast and the sonic signature.Paired reports from the same shot may be observed when the listener is first reached by the shock wave generated by the bullet flying past at supersonic speed (or sonic boom), then by the muzzle blast moving at the speed of sound all the way from the muzzle to where the listener is positioned.Of course the calibre and power of the rifle in question is also an important factor in this noise, the smaller and lower powered calibres making less of a ‘statement’ of presence than their bigger brothers.At this stage I believe it is important that we look at the advantages of using a suppressor or silencer on a rifle for the hunter. It is no use reading the rest of this discourse if you are not intending or considering the fitting of such a device.THE ADVANTAGES OF FITTING A SUPRESSORThere are many advantages in fitting a suppressor to your rifle over and above those related just to sound although this seems to be the main criteria.Hunters using center fire rifles find that suppressors bring various important benefits that outweigh the extra weight and resulting change in the firearm’s centre of gravity.Here is a list of the more important ones:1. The most important advantage of a suppressor is the hearing protection for the shooter as well as his/her companions. There are many hunters who have suffered permanent hearing damage due to someone else firing a high-calibre rifle too closely without a warning.2. By reducing noise, recoil and muzzle blast a suppressor also enables the shooter to follow through calmly on his/her first shot and fire a further carefully aimed shot without delay if necessary.3. Wildlife of all kinds is often confused as to the direction of the source of a well suppressed shot and will hesitate before taking flight allowing the hunter to take a second shot if required and thus ensure the downing of his target.4. Suppressors reduce firing recoil significantly, primarily by diverting and trapping the propellant gas. Propellant gas is generally a fraction of the projectile mass, but it exits the muzzle at multiples of the projectile velocity, and since recoil energy is a function of mass times velocity squared, the elimination of the propellant recoil can be significant. The added weight of the suppressor also contributes to the reduction of the recoil. Furthermore, the pressure against the face of each baffle is higher than the pressure on its reverse side, making each baffle a miniature “pneumatic ram” which pulls the suppressor forward on the weapon thereby contributing to a counter recoil force.5. A suppressor also cools the hot gasses coming out of the barrel enough so that most of the lead-laced vapour that leaves the barrel condenses inside the suppressor thus reducing the amount of lead that potentially might be inhaled by the shooter and others around him/her.Now we come to the next important factor.CALIBRE VERSUS VOLUMEIf we are looking at suppressing the sound of the rifle we find that generally speaking equal quality suppressors can quiet the sound or report of a smaller calibre bullet more effectively than a larger calibre bullet.This is because stripping the exhaust gasses found directly behind the projectile becomes increasingly more of a challenge.Likewise, cartridges which produce higher pressures and more gasses will also generally be louder than those which produce less pressure and fewer gasses.TYPES OF SUPPRESSORIn the main there are three types of suppressor found in the marketplace today and each has its advantages and of course, its disadvantages which will be discussed later on in the document.NORMAL SUPPRESSORS. Here the unit screws on to the end of the barrel and projects forward. This can add anything from 250mm to 400mm to the length of the rifle while weighing anything from 800 grams to 1.5kg.SEMI-REFLEX SUPPRESSORS. Here the unit extends rearwards over the barrel to a certain extent while still extending the rifle length by at least 250mm. They are of similar weight to the Normal type.FULL REFLEX SUPPRESSORS. Here the unit extends rearwards over the barrel almost to the stock creating the biggest rear chamber possible and only extends the rifle length by a maximum of 160mm. If the unit is built in the same fashion as the suppressor I build, then the weight of the unit should not exceed 850 grams.At this point it is pertinent to look at the factors involved when a cartridge is discharged in a rifle from a chemical and physical point of view.CHEMICAL AND PHYSICAL ATRIBUTES OF A DISCHARGING CARTRIDGEWhen the primer is struck by the firing pin in your rifle and the charge of powder you have loaded is ignited the following scenario takes place in a very short span of time.Firstly, as the powder burns it changes and produces a volume of extremely hot gas, the temperature of which would make an oxy-acetylene torch compare to the heat of your local gas braai flame.Most firearm users do not realise that the average rifle barrel only lasts approximately 1.7 seconds. Yes, I say again, only 1.7 seconds; before it is worn to the extent that it will no longer place shot for shot within a minute of angle at 100m.This is because the heat of the discharge has eroded the chamber area or other portion of the barrel. The time each shot takes to exit the barrel when fired is so short in time that to get to your 1.5 to 1.7 seconds of barrel life might take you anything up to 2500 rounds or more. So please don’t start to panic just yet.Now the volume of gas produced by your powder charge is a vital and very important aspect of this process.From data I have managed to find from various sources it would appear that 1gr of nitro cellulose powder can produce approximately 20 cubic inches or 32.7cc of gas on combustion. To interpolate this, then 30gr of your favourite powder produces approximately 9836cc of gas and 60 gr approximately 19672cc of gas on combustion.In effect this means that those of us who shoot a .308, 30-06 or similar, create about 9 litres of gas and those with bigger calibres produce 20 litres or more of gas on discharging a cartridge. Now we must remember that this gas produced is super-hot (2000°C PLUS) AND MUST GO SOMEWHERE! It is this super-hot gas that produces recoil and of course the noise associated with the discharge of the weapon. It is also this super-hot gas which causes throat erosion in the chamber of the rifle which in turn causes the barrel to wear beyond allowable limits for accuracy.Now it is time to look at the problems related to the type of suppressor you decide to fit to your rifle, and there are two main problems that spring to the fore should you decide to fit a suppressor. They are:a. A disturbed firearm balance, and most importantly,b. Barrel Erosion at the muzzle end.Looking at disturbed firearm balance, the most obvious culprit would be the Normal type of suppressor where all of the device hangs forward of the barrel. Obviously the Reflex suppressor would be less of a disturbance as a good portion is over the barrel thus reducing the overhang, while the Full Reflex suppressor would cause the minimum of disturbance to the firearm balance.However, when we begin to talk of barrel erosion at the muzzle end, this is where the outcome of your choice has a vast result on muzzle erosion and should be the most important aspect of which type of suppressor you choose.Here I need to digress slightly to take you to the scenario of a rectangular basin filled with plain old water. Now I am sure we have all seen at one stage or another that good old demonstration of what happens to the water when one end of the basin is given a good slap. If we can remember the demonstration correctly we will remember that the water in the basin would rise up on the side that was given the good slap, and then take off like a wave towards the other end.If we can remember what happened next, we should see in our minds how the wave of water hit the other end of the basin and formed another wave which began to travel back towards the side of the initial disturbance.This is exactly what happens to this volume of gas created upon the discharge of your firearm when it enters a Normal type of suppressor.Except for that small amount of gas which is directly behind the bullet and follows the bullet through and out of the suppressor, the balance is caught by the baffles and forms a secondary wave which then follows the path of least resistance, which, by the time it starts to move is back towards the chamber of the rifle. Remembering that this gas is super-hot, it is this returning gas that causes excessive and rapid muzzle erosion.It has been the experience of a number of rifle owners belonging to the ECGMA Hunt Club that the use of a Normal type suppressor has caused the erosion of the muzzle area of their rifles within approximately 1000 to 1200 rounds and deteriorating accuracy. This of course can only be corrected by the re-chambering and shortening of the barrel or the re-barrelling of the rifle at considerable cost. Not a good outcome at all.The Reflex type of suppressor reduces the above phenomenon to a fair extent, but again, where do you find the space to “park” some 10 to 20 litres of gas until such time as it is safe to let it bleed out of the muzzle end of the suppressor.THE ADVANTAGES OF THE FULL REFLEX SUPPRESSORThis is where the Full Reflex Suppressor such as the type that I build for my own rifles comes in to its own.Firstly, it creates the minimum of disturbance to the balance of the rifle as the majority of the suppressor is behind the muzzle of the firearm. It also only extends the overall length of the weapon by 150mm or so and by a maximum of 200mm on the very big magnum calibre weapons and weighs almost the same as the lightest of normal type suppressors. (In my cases this weight is approximately 850grams.)However, when it comes to barrel erosion, this is where this type of suppressor excels in minimising this phenomenon.Due to its extra-large rear chamber which extends back over the barrel the following advantages are achieved:A large proportion of the produced gas is turned into this rear chamber producing:1. A vast reduction in observed recoil.2. An opportunity for this gas to cool down due to contact with the cool surface of the outer suppressor housing.3. A brief break in the time between the pressurisation of this gas into the rear chamber and the bullet clearing the end of the suppressor causing the largest reduction in pressure at the exit of the suppressor.4. The turning of direction of this gas from moving towards the chamber end of the barrel towards the exit of the suppressor due to the “basin” effect explained earlier.5. The significant reduction of noise below that of a similar weighted normal type suppressor due to the reduction in pressure caused by the change of direction in airflow achieved by this design.This concept has been proven on the ECGMA Shooting Range where a number of different rifles with different suppressors supplied and fitted by different outlets are found on any shooting day side by side at the shooting benches. The results are always the same: the Full Reflex suppressor is beyond all doubt the most effective suppressor every time.IN CONCLUSIONA decent rifle in today’s world stands you in at an arm and a leg and is not the sort of item that can be replaced at the drop of a hat. Most people only ever own two or three different calibres dependant on what they can shoot and afford.The fitting of a suppressor seems to be the requirement of the age much like the latest cell-phone or high definition television set.In the same manner as the fitting of inferior optics to a good rifle creates an inferior tool for the hunter, so can the fitting of an inferior suppressor cause your pride and joy to become that embarrassing piece of hardware which does not seem to be able to hit what you aim at after a relatively short space of shooting time.And whereas the military and other specialist users of such devices are able to replace such weapons with relative ease when they begin to fade, this is not the case with the man in the street. Consequently it is of vital importance to choose your suppressor type wisely before making the decision to spend your hard-earned money.In my humble opinion, the Full Reflex suppressor is the only type to fit to your good hunting rifle, not because I happen to make them, but because it just makes good sense, all factors considered.

[F.L.A.S.H]

You can view the full article i posted as well as photos at http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/ ... rs-101621/