Watter Kaliber Pistool vir Selfverdediging

[FCLoretz]

Ek is nou ernstig in die mark om 'n pistool vir self verdediging aan te skaf.

Vote asb op watter kaliber jy persoonlik het/ wil he. En as julle wil verstek redes onder aan!

[FHM]

Ek is nou ernstig in die mark om 'n pistool vir self verdediging aan te skaf.

Vote asb op watter kaliber jy persoonlik het/ wil he. En as julle wil verstek redes onder aan!

Jy sal miskien net jou 9 mm keuse moet edit en se of dit 9 mm P (Parabellum) of 9 mm S (short) is...

[1250bandit]

Sjoe wat 'n vraag om te vra. indien jy iets soek wat ultra kompak is en in jou sak dra sal 'n 9mm short sekerlik werk maar daar is baie goed waarmee jy gaan moet saamleef soos hoeveelheid patrone wat die magasyn kan vat en as jou hande groot is gaan jy dalk bietjie sukkel.

Ek skiet 45 maar moet se my beperking op magasyn kapasiteit is ook maar 'n faktor wat ek mee saamleef. Die 40 is sekerlik die keuse waarvoor ek sal gaan as ek nie reeds die 45 gehad het nie. Ammunissie kan baie duur raak en is soms skaars, maar nie altyd nie. Die 9 mm met premium ammo is dan die een wat ek sal aanraai vir iemand anders

[VdWalt]

Ons weet altwee kan dit doen maar watter kaliber is die beste
om n olifant mee te skiet, 458 Lott of 375 H&H?

Watter een skiet makliker en watter een is goedkoper om mee the oefen?

[Gerhard]

Ek het n 40S&W en n 45 ACP en het bitter baie 9mm geskiet in die weermag en met praktiese skiet.

Die kaliber wat ek drae is die 45 ACP.

7 + 1 inni kamer 230gr round nose + 2 magasyne is my keuse.

[Hercules Louw]

Kyk 'n bietjie na die pakkie wat te koop is, beslis genoeg "fire power"

http://jaracal.com/index.php/topic,16763.0.html

Beretta 9mm pistool te koop.
Model 92.
4 x 15 skoot magasyne.
1 x 20 skoot magasyn.
1 x 30 skoot magasyn.
Gepoleerde sneller.
Verbeterde korrel en visier.
Baie goeie toestand.
Rede vir verkoop - eienaar werk oorsee.
R5000

[Monrique (SJ)]

My gedagte hieroor. Ekself het nie so n wapen en lees graag saam, omdat ek ook op die uitkyk is vir ene.

Tel skootplasing nie maar hier ook om die vyand te stuit nie. Help nie jy het 12+ koeels en die vlieg die wereld vol en tref dalk n onskuldige persoon as die aanvaller self. Hoeveel skote wil jy dan skiet ook? Dit sal ook natuurlik afhang van die persoon wat dit gaan gebruik, help seker nie n man van 6voet 8 met hande soos piesang trosse dra n wapen wat hy heeltemal toevou en nie sy vinger op die sneller kan kry nie. Het n paar jaar terug in die koerant gelees van n bejaarde persoon wat n inbreker met n .22 pistooltjie 2xskote gekap het en die le vandag onder die langbome!
Moet man nie kyk dalk na n 9mmK wat lekker kompak is en maklik toegemaak word onder jou klere.

Ek vra maar net en lees saam.

Groetnis

[Geno]

Ek het al so baie polisie manne gehoor wat s? dat hulle al magasyne 9mmP op 'n aanvaller leeg gemaak het, dan staan die man nog.

Dis oor die poeliesmanne met FMJ's skiet.

Hierdie is die regte medisyne vir EDC wapens, en ook al ammo wat ek gaan dra in my S&W SD-9:
Winchester Ranger T-Series.
(Let op die klein verskil in expansion tussen die kalibers.)
[img width=375 height=480]http://www.gunslot.com/files/gunslot/images/60138.jpg[/img]

Maar, as daar 2 kalibers is wat uitblink vir SD, is dit die .357Sig, en 10mm Auto. Ross, (Adrian Rosslee), een van Suid Afrika (dalk selfs die w?reld) se beste CQC instrukteurs, en 'n man met bitter baie ACTUAL combat-ondervinding sal dit beaam.

[1250bandit]

Geno jy is reg oor die 357Sig en 10mm Auto, maar die ammo is skaars en kos ook baie en die 357Sig kan ook moelikheid gee met herlaai, maar ek hou ook bitter baie van die kalibers.

+1 vir die Ranger T-series.

[Gerhard]

Ek het al so baie polisie manne gehoor wat s? dat hulle al magasyne 9mmP op 'n aanvaller leeg gemaak het, dan staan die man nog.

Dis oor die poeliesmanne met FMJ's skiet.

Hierdie is die regte medisyne vir EDC wapens, en ook al ammo wat ek gaan dra in my S&W SD-9:
Winchester Ranger T-Series.
(Let op die klein verskil in expansion tussen die kalibers.)
[img width=375 height=480]http://www.gunslot.com/files/gunslot/images/60138.jpg[/img]

Maar, as daar 2 kalibers is wat uitblink vir SD, is dit die .357Sig, en 10mm Auto. Ross, (Adrian Rosslee), een van Suid Afrika (dalk selfs die w?reld) se beste CQC instrukteurs, en 'n man met bitter baie ACTUAL combat-ondervinding sal dit beaam.

Hulle moet dalk net eers raak skiet... 

[LUAN]

Lees die storie selfs n .45 het gesukkel om die ou te stop.

Shots Fired: Skokie, Illinois 08/25/2008

Officer Tim Gramins pursued a bank robbery suspect and ended up in a deadly duel.

A black male in a white vehicle.
The description of the suspect wanted for the robbery of the Fifth Third Bank in Northbrook, Ill., wasn't detailed, but it was all Officer Tim Gramins had to go on.
In hopes that he might intercept the suspect, the Skokie (Ill.) PD officer responded to the area of Edens Expressway/94 southbound and Overton Road-a major interchange in the Chicago area. He parked and for several minutes monitored passing traffic until the sight of a white Pontiac Bonneville caught his eye. A check of the car's license plate indicated its registered owner lived on the South Side.
The white Bonneville with a black male driver warranted a second glance from Gramins, but it was the look on the man's face that commanded his attention. The split-second betrayal of fear melted into a calculated impassiveness that belied his being acutely aware of the trooper's ride. The expression was one that the 14-year veteran had become familiar with: The signature denial common to felons throughout the land.
Gramins wasted no time pulling in behind the Bonneville and keyed his mic to get other units rolling in his direction. But if Gramins was on to the driver's game, the Bonneville's driver, Raymond Maddox, was no less on to his and suddenly punched the accelerator, speeding off Edens Expressway and onto surface streets.
Adrenaline Rush
By the time Maddox turned east on Touhy Avenue, Gramins had closed the distance between them and his coordination of the pursuit was going as well as he could hope for. Then Maddox made a left turn onto Estes Avenue and things began to change for the worse.
Maddox headed into a residential neighborhood where he made a hard right turn onto Kilpatrick with Gramins on his tail. Rounding the corner, Maddox slammed on his brakes just as Gramins was trying to broadcast the latest change in the pursuit's direction.
Caught off guard, Gramins skidded to a stop a mere 15 feet away from the Bonneville?much closer than he would have wanted. Maddox's car door flew open and his feet hit the pavement.
Throughout, Gramins had been in a reactive mode-reacting to information that he was processing based upon what was being communicated to him, first by the radio, then by the driver, a man who was himself unencumbered by the distractions of calling a pursuit or worrying about the welfare of others.
But the suddenness of Maddox's maneuver and the increasingly apparent reasons for it now registered with Gramins in the form of a surge of adrenaline and greater visual acuity.
At the sight of Maddox stepping out of the Bonneville with a Smith & Wesson 5906 9mm pistol, Gramins tossed the mic, then simultaneously unbuckled his seat belt with his left hand as he drew his .45 caliber Glock from its holster.
Maddox point-fired at Gramins as he charged toward the patrol unit. Four bullets hit the front of Gramins' squad car.
Gramins let loose with a barrage of rounds hoping that what he might lose in accuracy would be compensated for by its suppressive nature. The only thing separating Gramins and his assailant was a windshield that was fast disintegrating from ingoing and outgoing rounds.

Suddenly Maddox was right on top of Gramins. Both men aimed their guns through the driver's window of Gramins' car and squeezed their triggers.
Impasse
CLICK!
If the thought that their firearms might run dry at the exact same moment had been unexpected by the men, its eventuality didn't seem to faze either. Both compensated without a second's hesitation, Maddox doubling back for the cover of his own car as Gramins exited his.
Liberating himself from the patrol car, Gramins escaped a confined kill zone and availed himself a number of tactical options for dealing with the suspect. But he'd also momentarily lost sight of Maddox, who he thought might've re-entered the Bonneville with the intent of retrieving a second weapon. Gramins positioned himself between it and the front of his patrol unit where he knelt and fed in a second magazine.
The slide of his pistol had just chambered a fresh round when Maddox was back in view along the left side of the Bonneville and re-engaging him, probably with a second handgun.
Gramins returned fire, scurrying down along the driver's side of his patrol car and around the trunk so as to get an eye forward along the passenger side of his unit.
Realizing that Maddox had moved up on his patrol car, too, Gramins ducked down on the passenger side. Seeing the Glock in lockback, he fed in a third
magazine.
Maddox and Gramins then began a deadly game of cat and mouse, firing on each other from opposite sides of the patrol vehicle. One would rise and fire as the other would duck.
Aim Better
Back and forth it went until Gramins saw Maddox sink below his visual plane again. He decided to try a different tactic. Seeing that the patrol car was canted up on the crest of the street, the officer wondered if he couldn't skip some rounds off the asphalt at Maddox.
Gramins went prone, and resumed firing under the patrol car in Maddox's direction, more point shooting than not. But as he visually tracked his shots' placement, he realized that his rounds were impacting the tire and the underside of his unit.
Not good, Gramins thought. You need to aim better.
He paused, took a breath and a second to consciously line his sights up on what he could see of Maddox's head as the man crouched on the downslope of the opposite side of the street. Slowing himself down, Gramins locked in his sights on the suspect's head and fired a three-round volley in rapid succession.
Maddox went down.
Gramins paused, peering beneath the vehicle's frame and keeping an eyeline on Maddox's prostrate form. Blood pooled about Maddox's head.
Gramins keyed his portable mic to get paramedics rolling but kept getting stepped on by the coordination of units responding to his location.
A plainwrap manned by Skokie PD detectives Jose Mendez and Jessie Barnes was the first unit on scene. Seeing the extent of Maddox's injuries, Mendez kicked the suspect's handgun to the side before handcuffing him while Barnes checked on Gramins. Gramins and Maddox were then transported to St. Francis Hospital where Maddox was pronounced dead and Gramins spent the night before being released the next day.

17 Hits
Gramins believes that the second time Maddox engaged him it was probably with a second handgun that he had, a Bersa Blue Thunder .380. But save for a few cuts to his chin from flying debris, Gramins came out of the shooting mentally and physically unscathed.
It was a different story for Maddox.

There were 17 total hits on his body including three fatal shots to his head, a couple to his torso, and one to his abdomen," Gramins says. "Which means that even though Maddox was mortally wounded before the head shots, he was still able to engage me.
"People don't die the way we think they do," Gramins says. "I had 17 rounds in the guy. That will teach you how critical shot placement is."
Gramins' inability to successfully place rounds in the early part of the engagement is readily understandable given both the spontaneous nature of the attack and the confined environment he'd found himself in. Still, he'd made the most out of suppressive fire.
"Early in the fight, I didn't see where my rounds were going," says Gramins. "I had a favorable backdrop but didn't have my front sight. You need to find that front sight as fast as you can.
"They always talk about getting the front sight, and it's true. I knew the rounds I shot when I was prone and perpendicular to my unit hit him because I had a good sight picture on him as he was kneeling on the other side of my squad car on the opposite side of the street," he says.
Gramins readily credits his training as the key to his survival, and he tries to convey that same kind of training to others. He emphasizes the need to take one's range and tactical training seriously and shares his "will to survive" philosophy. But in discussing the shooting with other officers, Gramins is occasionally dismayed to hear someone comment, "Shooting through the glass? Holy cow, I wouldn't have thought of that."
"Well, why not?" Gramins asks them rhetorically.
Such encounters make him wonder if police agencies are doing an adequate job of training their personnel. He also wonders to what extent officers take it upon themselves to enhance their training through their own initiative.
"I'm lucky because my SWAT training has given me more training than many other officers get, and that training comes into play," Gramins admits. "But I've also supplemented that training with outside training. I also make a point of reading books like Dave Grossman's 'On Combat' and Alexis Artwohl's 'Deadly Force Encounters: What Cops Need To Know To Mentally And Physically Prepare For And Survive A Gunfight.'"
But even with all that training and a round in the chamber, each of Gramins' available 12-round gun magazines came into play that day-and he had a mere four rounds left when the smoke cleared.
"When you run empty, you run out quicker than you think you're going to," Gramins observes. "My backup was a Glock 26, but I didn't get to it."
The Glock 26 wasn't the only weapon that didn't come into play: An SKS rifle was recovered from the Bonneville. Gramins demurs when asked if his aggressing Maddox on foot may have prevented the man from accessing the weapon, but it is something to consider.
So are the unexpected things that one can experience in a firefight. For Gramins, just getting off his first round provided a huge psychological lift. "You feel a little better once you're up and in the game," he says.
Gramins has accustomed himself to cardio training and to routinely performing "what if" scenario training throughout his work day. He hopes that other officers working patrol are as conscientious about keeping themselves mentally and physically conditioned and that they always have something at the forefront of their consciousness to fight for. For Gramins, that proved to be his love for his son.
"It was my son's birthday, and we were going to have a party for him that night," Gramins recalls. "I was determined to be there for my son, and that goal gave me all the determination I needed to come out on top."
One image stays with Gramins, who was named Illinois State Officer of the Year and one of 10 law enforcement officers selected by NAPO to visit the White House for their heroism. The image is that of a resident on the northeast corner of the street who throughout the incident was yelling his support for the officer.
"'Get this guy!' he's yelling," Gramins laughs. "'Get him! Get him! Shoot him!' I could hear him the whole time. It was comforting to know that someone was cheering me on and that I was not out there by myself. It was like having a coach on the sidelines during a game."

[LUAN]

En hier is nog n manier om "stopping power" uit te werk

STOPPING POWER

John Dean "Jeff" Cooper (May 10, 1920 ? September 25, 2006) was recognized as the father of what is commonly known as the
"Modern Technique of the Pistol", and of "Handgun Shooting",
and one of the 20th century's foremost international experts on the use and history of small arms.

Jeff quoted extensively from FBI and law enforcement statistics.
Here is a formula, the hatcher scale, for calculating stopping power of a handgun.

Bullet weight times velocity times frontal diameter. Then, add 25% for bullet expansion.
As an example, 160 times 1000, round off, gives 16. Add 25% for bullet expansion and you have 20.
A really hot .38 or a standard .357 made the scale.
The .45 is a fine cartridge based on historical and factual evidence.
The Hatcher scale simply confirms this.
The Hatcher scale was something Cooper respected.
After the Miami shootout in which good FBI agents were slain by killers, Cooper disdained the small bores and reported the main creep had taken fourteen hits.
An up and coming writer noted that Cooper should get his facts straight, the man was shot twice and it could happen with any bullet.
When a complete study was released months later, Cooper's report was proven correct.
I am sure the Colonel had contacts at Quantico.
Cooper reported factually and probably didn?t understand why others did not.
We are all allowed our own opinions, but not our own facts.

According to the FBI statistics:
9mm Parabellum and the .38 Special, are 50% stoppers;
.375 Magnum is a 75% stopper;
.45ACP is a 90% stopper;
.44 S&W Magnum is a 95% stopper.

My personal choice is always the full-sized 1911 pattern .45ACP with certain modifications.
If the pistol is correctly set up, a 10 year old child can load magazines, cock and fire it without and negative effects.
We had such members in our shooting club firing full load .45 ACPs.

My recommendation would be one of the composite lightweight single-stacker .45 ACP pistols.

Jeff Cooper related the case of a depressed businessman who committed suicide.
The man and his wife had a social gathering (party) at their home. In the course of the evening, the man went upstairs to his bedroom, took his Browning .25, placed it to his temple and pulled the trigger.
From the evidence, it was thought that he must have glanced in a mirror, noticed that the entrance wound was almost indiscernible, staunched and cleaned up the insignificant trickle of blood from the wound, and went back downstairs to rejoin in the revelry with all thoughts of suicide forgotten.
Unfortunately, he died from internal bleeding some time later.

Cooper went great lengths to explain that using too small a calibre for self-defence was more likely to enrage an attacked rather than stop him.

General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900?s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge.
His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.

You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power.
Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don?t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with.
Handgun cartridges that don?t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense.
If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop.
Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.

Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating
.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1 Close
.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7
.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3
.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8
.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6
.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ........ 76.5
.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ....... 54
.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain ......... 80
10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .... 50.3
10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain .62.1
.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain .53.4
.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ...... 59.4
.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7
.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ........ 39.7
.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 32.7
.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ........ 48.5 Close
.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ......... 36.6
.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2 Close
9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ..... 32.3
9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain . 39.9
.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3
.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1
.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7
.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain .4.2

[Geno]

Is die 9mm S en 9MM P op die poll nou onlangs onderskei?

[FCLoretz]

Ja Geno,

Ek het dit eers onlangs geskei, wil jy jou vote verander?

[Gerhard]

Ja,

As n ou op "juice" raak dit heel anders.

Ek het gevalle gesien waar n man deur die FBI 38 keer raak geskiet is met hand wapen ammo en hy het bly terug baklei.

Hy het eers geval met n goed geplaasde geweer skoot...

[Geno]

wil jy jou vote verander?

Asseblief ja

[LUAN]

Niks soos n haelgeweer as dit kom by "one shot drops" nie maar dis ongelukkig bietjie groot om aan jou sy te dra en weg te steek.

[VdWalt]

Ek het al so baie polisie manne gehoor wat s? dat hulle al magasyne 9mmP op 'n aanvaller leeg gemaak het, dan staan die man nog. Hoe waar dit is weet ek nie, maar dis nie enkele stories nie.

Dis waar - my broer was lank by Blitspatrollie in Mamelodi, maar soos Geno s?, die regte koeel maak n groot
verskil. Dit is soos om iemand met n field point en met n broadhead te skiet en dan die boog die wat die field
point geskiet het, die skuld te gee oor die man nog rond hardloop.
As ek meer met my 9mm oefen gaan ek met n goeie koeel beter vaar as iemand wat n groter kaliber skiet
maar wat nie so baie soos ek oefen nie.

[Kalahari]

FC

Waar sal my vote nou inval? Ek het ook gevote voor die 9mms in die race gekom het.
My vote gaan by 9mm P.

[FCLoretz]

FC

Waar sal my vote nou inval? Ek het ook gevote voor die 9mms in die race gekom het.
My vote gaan by 9mm P.

ek sal dit in my data in sit op 9mm P. Ek het vergeet om onderskeid te tref tussen die 2 9mm's

[1250bandit]

Kostes word dan aansienlik beter vir die 40.

Handwapens het maar nie 'n waarborg in stop vermoe nie, maar dis beter om enige iets te gebruik anders as jou vinger. koop waarmee jy kan oefen en gemaklik voel. Volgende bespreking kan ook dan handwapen maak en model wees....... hahahaha

[FCLoretz]

Kostes word dan aansienlik beter vir die 40.

Handwapens het maar nie 'n waarborg in stop vermoe nie, maar dis beter om enige iets te gebruik anders as jou vinger. koop waarmee jy kan oefen en gemaklik voel. Volgende bespreking kan ook dan handwapen maak en model wees....... hahahaha

Ai bandit,

Kaliber is een gesprek. Maak en model is modder gooi en ek het my klei lat by die huis gelos. 

[VdWalt]

As ek meer met my 9mm oefen gaan ek met n goeie koeel beter vaar as iemand wat n groter kaliber skiet
maar wat nie so baie soos ek oefen nie.

Ja, dis waar, maar as mens self laai vir oefen met die 40S&W, is kostes van ammo steeds so groot faktor?

Ek glo ook die 40 is beter om iemand te stop, maar dis die hele pakket wat mens ook na moet kyk. As jy self
laai raak die koste baie beter, maar as jy na die frame size kyk wat mens vir SD koop om heeldag rond te
dra, begin n pistool vinnig byt, selfs n 9mm. Dit raak dan nog vinniger bietjie ongemaklik in n 40.

Party manne hou van die skop en byt as die skoot afgaan, so hulle gaan mal wees oor die 40 en as jy hom ken
en kan hanteer is hy koning. Maar as hy gaan maak dat jy nie genoeg oefen nie, is die 9mm P beter.

[Gerhard]

Dis goed koop om handwapen ammo te laai in vergelyking met geweer ammo.

Lood (cast) punte is redelik beskikbaar en dan koop jy n 1000.

Doppe, primers en kruit is ook nie te onaardig nie.

Ge sal seker nou meer kan se wat is die huidige koste vir punte, primers en kruit soos MP200

Jy hoef ook nie splinter nuwe doppe te koop vir die pistool as jy once fired kan in die hande kry nie.

As julle cast punte in Pta soek laat weet dan stuur ek vir julle n kontak nommer by wie ek al my punte gekoop het vir IPSC vir die 38 Super, 40 S&W en 45 ACP.

[PWV]

Ek het 'n .38 Special (Llama).  'n Groot en lomp wapen indien jy hom gedurig by jou wil dra.
Vertel my van die .22 Mini Magnum (American).  Dit is 'n ding wat jy onopvallend kan dra en kenners beweer hy het dieselfde slaankrag op 10 m as 'n 9 mm.