Britsman het die perd (ene John Porter) aangehaal soos hy dit self geplaas het. Wonder op watter planeet hierdie perd woon?Christo wrote:..kan nie glo iemand raak dit regtig kwyt nie, of die stuk is uit konteks aangehaal.
Ambessa
Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
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Ambessa
Re: Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
Hallo Christo
Ambessa
Ambessa
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Christo
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Re: Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
Hy kort 'n koppie koffieAmbessa wrote: Hallo Christo
Britsman het die perd (ene John Porter) aangehaal soos hy dit self geplaas het. Wonder op watter planeet hierdie perd woon?Christo wrote:..kan nie glo iemand raak dit regtig kwyt nie, of die stuk is uit konteks aangehaal.
Ambessa
Het ek maar net alles geweet. Jakkalse is slimmer as ons, ons maak hulle superslim.
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jaracal
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Re: Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
Vegetarian is an old Bushman word for bad hunter
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jaracal
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Re: Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
Hiermee die "Comments" soos ingestuur na die Direkteur Generaal (kan afgelaai word in pdf as vorige post se "link" gevolg word)
Verkorte een hiermee uiteengesit:
At: Mr Thomas Mbedzi
Private Bag x 447
Pretoria
0001
Re: Comments on Notice 1084 of 2010, Draft Norms and Standards for the Management of Damage Causing Animals in South Africa.
I write this on behalf of myself (I have more than 14 years been actively involved in managing DAC on various farms in the Free State, Eastern Cape, Northern Cape and the Western Cape.) and as a representative of the Jaracal Internet Forum also known as The Forum for the Hunter at http://www.jaracal.com/index.php. We have currently a membership of 751 persons which consist of farmers, hunters, damage causing animal hunters and researchers.
We thank you for the opportunity to comment on the draft legislation but would however like to make an objection in the strongest possible way on the time it was published ? The end of the year is always a difficult time as most people will go on holiday and it gives the impression that Government is trying to push something sinister forward.
We would like to make the following general comments:
1. No matter how many laws are made, Government must have the capacity to enforce the laws or else it would be a useless exercise.
2. ?One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation.? ? Thomas Reed
3. Looking at the overall Draft Legislation it is obvious that the persons involved in putting the draft legislation forward have close to no practical experience in the field of small stock farming, game farming and managing damage causing animals or predator management. They also do not have an idea of the implication and increase in workload of the proposed legislation. (Which we will demonstrate in our comments on specifics in the draft legislation)
4. In some areas certain animals will be Damage Causing Animals and in other areas the same animal will not be a DCA but an animal that can be utilise sustainable, i.e. trophy, skin, etc. These norms and standards should take that into account. If call and shoot is for instance a restricted activity you will not be able to use that for duck hunting, etc.
5. The norms and standards should also include that certain animals like the Black Backed Jackal and Caracal in certain areas i.e. the Greater Karoo and traditional small stock farming areas, will be DCA?s and should therefore be declared as Damage Causing Animals to make the management of the DCA easier. In a ?damage causing animal? hunting operation between 1 November 2010 and 17 December 2010 the following data were collected:
o Stomach contents of 95 animals that were killed were examined of which 46 contained domestic livestock and 35 natural prey and 14 had nothing in their stomachs. The data were collected in South Africa and Namibia and some places that were hunted do not have sheep. A 48.4% of the jackal stomachs contained sheep/ domestic livestock.
That is more than enough proof that the majority of jackals do take sheep and should be declared a Damage Causing Animal in small stock farming areas.
6. The whole Legislation operation and procedure was high-jacked by the anti-hunting fraternity and the so called ?purists?. The first Holistic management of Wildlife conflict meeting was held in Ganze Kraal 10-13 April 2006 and were attended by 46 members from CapeNature and other conservation agencies/organizations, 2 persons who have been involved with controlling DCA, 1 x Game farmer, 1 x Farmer from Caledon in the Western Cape and one person from the Woolgrowers Association of SA. A 5 to 46 ratio. (See appendix 1).
There were no farmer organizations or other organizations that would have given the decisions and or suggestions a balanced outcome. Subsequent meetings were more in favour of the anti hunting lobby with the committee that was formed at the first DCA Norms and Standard meeting held in Pretoria a proverbial example. (See appendix 2)
7. Several of the points on which consensus were reached in the first meeting were not included in the draft legislation as well as several General Comments that were totally ignored. (See appendix 3).
It is thus my submission that the first meeting was a smokescreen and thousands of rands and man-hours were waisted with the exercise and that the anti-hunting fraternity has more say in this matter than the farmers who are the persons who do more for conservation than any organization. For instance, Neither Landmark Foundation or Government or TOPS regulations saved any of the leopards that were killed in the Baviaanskloof conservancy. It is still the person on the farm who will take the decision to kill or not to kill.
8. A task team was appointed to put forward a draft for the Norms and Standards and that draft was to be circulated back to the persons present. That would have been the first step and then the follow-up comments would have been incorporated for further comment etc. None of that happened as Dr Bool Smuts (again an anti hunting supporter) high-jacked the process with his e-mails and rudeness. I quote the point of the meeting for the record:
?Point 9 ? Way forward - The Chairperson proposed a small task team to continue working with these N&S due to time constraints since it needs to be finalized by March 2009. The task team will work via e-mail, to draft a document and distribute to members of the meeting. The task team comprising of the following peoples was formulated:?
9. Every farmer has the right to protect his animals from predation. I include for your perusal commentary of Adv Willem Smit that was sent to your department in 2006 for ?NATIONAL NORMS AND STANDARDS FOR THE REGULATION OF THE HUNTING INDUSTRY IN SOUTH AFRICA" met 'n bespreking van Artikel 12, wat handel met "Damage causing animals" - die beplande gelyste roofdiere rooijakkals en rooikat. (Appendix 4)
10. All the Non?Lethal methods have been tried in South Africa over the last 14 years with initial success but it was never effective on the long run. (longer than 5 years). It is in a farmer?s nature to protect his stock and farmers will try anything to minimise the losses. Most of the claims presented in case studies were not tested over a long period of time and are thus prejudice. It is interesting to note that breeders of Sheppard dogs or inventors of devices have the most success with the dogs and/or equipment. Claims and counterclaims can be made but none of the data was scientifically researched and should not be taken as facts.
11. Perceptions are taken as facts with disregard of the reality and the actual facts.
See Statement of CapeNature (Appendix 5) to mention but a few. Perceptions Highlighted by author.
12. None of the existence farmers or upcoming previously disadvantage farmers, their lack of resources and their practices, have been taken into account in putting forward this Draft Norms and Standards.
13. The Draft is more based on problems caused by predators like jackal and caracal than anything else. It is therefore inadequate to address the problem of ?Damage Causing Animals?.
14. Small predators like Jackals and Caracals will never be vulnerable or endangered and need to be managed like any other animal on a farm or reserve. When the apex predators were taken out they became the top predators in the area, which is why they will multiply to unacceptable numbers if not managed. For information on this please see ?The Rise of the Mesopredator - October 2009 / Vol. 59 No. 9 ? BioScience 779? - Appendix 6.
15. The government cannot dictate or prescribe to farmers how to farm, run or manage their business. There are inherent risks to farming especially farming with small stock but to prescribe to farmers that they need to farm holistic and allow predators with small stock thereby effectively increasing stock losses, is absurd and borders on insanity.
16. Predator Management is part and parcel of any game or stock farming operation. A certificate of adequate enclosure should be given on request to farms with a fence that will contain jackal and other similar predators, as with ungulates and other species. That farmer could manage his/her number of predators the same as with ungulates.
17. Comments of some of our members (Appendix 7)
18. Comments on the Draft Norms and Standards as per (Appendix '8')
Groete en lekker lees.
Heinrich
Verkorte een hiermee uiteengesit:
At: Mr Thomas Mbedzi
Private Bag x 447
Pretoria
0001
Re: Comments on Notice 1084 of 2010, Draft Norms and Standards for the Management of Damage Causing Animals in South Africa.
I write this on behalf of myself (I have more than 14 years been actively involved in managing DAC on various farms in the Free State, Eastern Cape, Northern Cape and the Western Cape.) and as a representative of the Jaracal Internet Forum also known as The Forum for the Hunter at http://www.jaracal.com/index.php. We have currently a membership of 751 persons which consist of farmers, hunters, damage causing animal hunters and researchers.
We thank you for the opportunity to comment on the draft legislation but would however like to make an objection in the strongest possible way on the time it was published ? The end of the year is always a difficult time as most people will go on holiday and it gives the impression that Government is trying to push something sinister forward.
We would like to make the following general comments:
1. No matter how many laws are made, Government must have the capacity to enforce the laws or else it would be a useless exercise.
2. ?One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation.? ? Thomas Reed
3. Looking at the overall Draft Legislation it is obvious that the persons involved in putting the draft legislation forward have close to no practical experience in the field of small stock farming, game farming and managing damage causing animals or predator management. They also do not have an idea of the implication and increase in workload of the proposed legislation. (Which we will demonstrate in our comments on specifics in the draft legislation)
4. In some areas certain animals will be Damage Causing Animals and in other areas the same animal will not be a DCA but an animal that can be utilise sustainable, i.e. trophy, skin, etc. These norms and standards should take that into account. If call and shoot is for instance a restricted activity you will not be able to use that for duck hunting, etc.
5. The norms and standards should also include that certain animals like the Black Backed Jackal and Caracal in certain areas i.e. the Greater Karoo and traditional small stock farming areas, will be DCA?s and should therefore be declared as Damage Causing Animals to make the management of the DCA easier. In a ?damage causing animal? hunting operation between 1 November 2010 and 17 December 2010 the following data were collected:
o Stomach contents of 95 animals that were killed were examined of which 46 contained domestic livestock and 35 natural prey and 14 had nothing in their stomachs. The data were collected in South Africa and Namibia and some places that were hunted do not have sheep. A 48.4% of the jackal stomachs contained sheep/ domestic livestock.
That is more than enough proof that the majority of jackals do take sheep and should be declared a Damage Causing Animal in small stock farming areas.
6. The whole Legislation operation and procedure was high-jacked by the anti-hunting fraternity and the so called ?purists?. The first Holistic management of Wildlife conflict meeting was held in Ganze Kraal 10-13 April 2006 and were attended by 46 members from CapeNature and other conservation agencies/organizations, 2 persons who have been involved with controlling DCA, 1 x Game farmer, 1 x Farmer from Caledon in the Western Cape and one person from the Woolgrowers Association of SA. A 5 to 46 ratio. (See appendix 1).
There were no farmer organizations or other organizations that would have given the decisions and or suggestions a balanced outcome. Subsequent meetings were more in favour of the anti hunting lobby with the committee that was formed at the first DCA Norms and Standard meeting held in Pretoria a proverbial example. (See appendix 2)
7. Several of the points on which consensus were reached in the first meeting were not included in the draft legislation as well as several General Comments that were totally ignored. (See appendix 3).
It is thus my submission that the first meeting was a smokescreen and thousands of rands and man-hours were waisted with the exercise and that the anti-hunting fraternity has more say in this matter than the farmers who are the persons who do more for conservation than any organization. For instance, Neither Landmark Foundation or Government or TOPS regulations saved any of the leopards that were killed in the Baviaanskloof conservancy. It is still the person on the farm who will take the decision to kill or not to kill.
8. A task team was appointed to put forward a draft for the Norms and Standards and that draft was to be circulated back to the persons present. That would have been the first step and then the follow-up comments would have been incorporated for further comment etc. None of that happened as Dr Bool Smuts (again an anti hunting supporter) high-jacked the process with his e-mails and rudeness. I quote the point of the meeting for the record:
?Point 9 ? Way forward - The Chairperson proposed a small task team to continue working with these N&S due to time constraints since it needs to be finalized by March 2009. The task team will work via e-mail, to draft a document and distribute to members of the meeting. The task team comprising of the following peoples was formulated:?
9. Every farmer has the right to protect his animals from predation. I include for your perusal commentary of Adv Willem Smit that was sent to your department in 2006 for ?NATIONAL NORMS AND STANDARDS FOR THE REGULATION OF THE HUNTING INDUSTRY IN SOUTH AFRICA" met 'n bespreking van Artikel 12, wat handel met "Damage causing animals" - die beplande gelyste roofdiere rooijakkals en rooikat. (Appendix 4)
10. All the Non?Lethal methods have been tried in South Africa over the last 14 years with initial success but it was never effective on the long run. (longer than 5 years). It is in a farmer?s nature to protect his stock and farmers will try anything to minimise the losses. Most of the claims presented in case studies were not tested over a long period of time and are thus prejudice. It is interesting to note that breeders of Sheppard dogs or inventors of devices have the most success with the dogs and/or equipment. Claims and counterclaims can be made but none of the data was scientifically researched and should not be taken as facts.
11. Perceptions are taken as facts with disregard of the reality and the actual facts.
See Statement of CapeNature (Appendix 5) to mention but a few. Perceptions Highlighted by author.
12. None of the existence farmers or upcoming previously disadvantage farmers, their lack of resources and their practices, have been taken into account in putting forward this Draft Norms and Standards.
13. The Draft is more based on problems caused by predators like jackal and caracal than anything else. It is therefore inadequate to address the problem of ?Damage Causing Animals?.
14. Small predators like Jackals and Caracals will never be vulnerable or endangered and need to be managed like any other animal on a farm or reserve. When the apex predators were taken out they became the top predators in the area, which is why they will multiply to unacceptable numbers if not managed. For information on this please see ?The Rise of the Mesopredator - October 2009 / Vol. 59 No. 9 ? BioScience 779? - Appendix 6.
15. The government cannot dictate or prescribe to farmers how to farm, run or manage their business. There are inherent risks to farming especially farming with small stock but to prescribe to farmers that they need to farm holistic and allow predators with small stock thereby effectively increasing stock losses, is absurd and borders on insanity.
16. Predator Management is part and parcel of any game or stock farming operation. A certificate of adequate enclosure should be given on request to farms with a fence that will contain jackal and other similar predators, as with ungulates and other species. That farmer could manage his/her number of predators the same as with ungulates.
17. Comments of some of our members (Appendix 7)
18. Comments on the Draft Norms and Standards as per (Appendix '8')
Groete en lekker lees.
Heinrich
Last edited by jaracal on Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vegetarian is an old Bushman word for bad hunter
-
britsman
- Hero Member
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Re: Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
Heinrich,
Beter kon jy nie se nie. Jy het baie moete gedoen met die opstel van die "Comment." Hopelik gaan hulle die wetgewing inpas..... maar ek wonder.
Weerens baie dankie.
goedgaan,
britsman
Beter kon jy nie se nie. Jy het baie moete gedoen met die opstel van die "Comment." Hopelik gaan hulle die wetgewing inpas..... maar ek wonder.
Weerens baie dankie.
goedgaan,
britsman
If guns are outlawed. Only outlaws will have guns.
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tafjak
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Re: Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
Heinrich
Dink nie jy kon die spyker beter raakslaan nie. Stem 200% saam met wat jy s? en is dit ook so uiteengesit dat dit aandag(wat die doel van die objeksie is) moet afdwing en nie durf misgekyk word nie. Mooi!
Dink nie jy kon die spyker beter raakslaan nie. Stem 200% saam met wat jy s? en is dit ook so uiteengesit dat dit aandag(wat die doel van die objeksie is) moet afdwing en nie durf misgekyk word nie. Mooi!
Mooiloop en Geseende Kersfees!
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Ambessa
Re: Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
Hallo Jaracal / Britsman / Tafjak
Ambessa
britsman wrote:...Beter kon jy nie se nie. Jy het baie moete gedoen met die opstel van die "Comment." Hopelik gaan hulle die wetgewing inpas..... maar ek wonder... ...Weerens baie dankie.
Dankie vir die inset. Myne kort nog bietjie skaafwerk maar volg hopelik later vandag.tafjak wrote:...Dink nie jy kon die spyker beter raakslaan nie. Stem 200% saam met wat jy s? en is dit ook so uiteengesit dat dit aandag(wat die doel van die objeksie is) moet afdwing en nie durf misgekyk word nie. Mooi!
Ambessa
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Spice
- Newbie
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Re: Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
Hallo Almal
Ek sal more n amptelikke epos kry maar kan almal solank laat weet dat die minister uitstel gegee het tot 31 Januarie 2011 vir kommentaar tov N&S. So die wat dit nog nie gedoen het nie kan nou eers rustig vakansie hou. ( Dit help soms om die regte mense op die regte plekke te ken !!! )
Groete Spice
Ek sal more n amptelikke epos kry maar kan almal solank laat weet dat die minister uitstel gegee het tot 31 Januarie 2011 vir kommentaar tov N&S. So die wat dit nog nie gedoen het nie kan nou eers rustig vakansie hou. ( Dit help soms om die regte mense op die regte plekke te ken !!! )
Groete Spice
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Ambessa
Re: Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
Hallo Spice
Saam moet ons die skip se kop nou reg laat loop.
Groete Ambessa
Howdy pardner... ...dankie ook aan die ander pardner.Spice wrote:... minister uitstel gegee het tot 31 Januarie 2011 vir kommentaar tov N&S. So die wat dit nog nie gedoen het nie kan nou eers rustig vakansie hou. ( Dit help soms om die regte mense op die regte plekke te ken !!! )
Saam moet ons die skip se kop nou reg laat loop.
Groete Ambessa
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CHRIS
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Re: Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
Heinrich
Baie goed gedoen.
Spice en oom Amm
wel gedaan MANNE
Baie goed gedoen.
Spice en oom Amm
wel gedaan MANNE
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Biker
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Re: Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
Mooi Gedoen
Projekteer ook vir hulle die prys van skaapvleis so vir die volgende 5jr as ons ophou ongediertes beheer. Kadawers wees bereid om R100 /kg te betaal
Groete Biker
Projekteer ook vir hulle die prys van skaapvleis so vir die volgende 5jr as ons ophou ongediertes beheer. Kadawers wees bereid om R100 /kg te betaal
Groete Biker
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THOMAST
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Re: Lewer asseblief kommentaar op voorgestelde wetgewing
Het vanoggend die amptelike epos ontvang oor die uitstel van die afsnydatum tov kommentaar oor die N&S tot die 31 Januarie 2011.
