Expired license - way forward

[Dimitri]

Hi Guys,

I read somewhere, I don't recall where, about a guy who re-licensed his handgun under the new legislation, got his white firearm license but then allowed the license and competency to lapse.

He had hoped to take advantage of the firearms amnesty that expired at the end of January 2021 in order to re-license his firearm but unfortunately, in addition to being a diabetic he was also on oxygen 18 hours a day after suffering heart complications. Given his poor health, he was advised not to risk going out into public places and especially not to stand in queues with other people as contracting COVID-19 would have life-threatening consequences for him.

During 2020 he phoned his local police station numerous times to speak to someone who could advise him on what to do considering that it was not safe for him to go into the police station but there was nobody available to assist him. A letter was also addressed to CFR regarding the matter but there was no reply.

He would therefore currently be in possession of an unlicensed firearm and I was reminded of this when I read the following on SAHGCA's newsletter that I received this week:

SA Hunters cannot help anyone whose firearm licence has expired. It means that you are in illegal possession of a firearm that you cannot use. You can’t even hand it in at a dealer. The only remedy is to surrender the firearm to SAPS for destruction. Do not use it and do not drive around with it.

Is this what the man should do? Someone suggested that perhaps he should sit tight and pray for another amnesty? Unfortunately, I think there are still many thousands of firearm owners out there with expired licenses and it remains to be seen how SAPS plans to deal with that. They can't even handle the comparatively few new applications never mind all the expired/unlicensed ones.

Although some people may have legit reasons for not renewing in time, I think 99% don't - and they give us a bad name and make the firearms community look irresponsible. The guy I read about may have a ligit excuse not to have renewed under the amnesty but he should not have allowed the license to expire in the first place.

Still, here we are and I'm wondering what the best course of action would be for the guy I read about. I understand that, legally, he should go and hand it in. But unless his health has improved he might consider it too risky. Also, if another amnesty was announced at a later stage, those who have handed in their firearms already would have missed that opportunity?

What do you guys think?

[HeinM]

SA Hunters cannot help anyone whose firearm licence has expired. It means that you are in illegal possession of a firearm that you cannot use. You can’t even hand it in at a dealer. The only remedy is to surrender the firearm to SAPS for destruction. Do not use it and do not drive around with it.

Martin Hood gee presies dieselfde raad... So ek dink dit is die einde van die pad vir ouens met sulke wapens... Baie sad

Mooi naweek

[Capt. Yoda]

Ek dink in sy geval gaan die maklikste en moontlik die enigste opsie maar wees om die yster in te gee, dit klink as ek nou so lees of hy nie regtig nut het vir hom in elk geval nie al sou hy hom nou as n SD wapen wou/kon gebruik.

[Dimitri]

Thanks Hein and Capt.

Thinking about what I read, I think that with all his health issues the guy might feel that the license is not a priority and just wait and see.

[Desperatezulu]

The juice needs to be worth the squeeze - if the firearm in question is/was a collector's piece with a huge amount of sentimental and financial value, then it might be worth considering waiting for another amnesty (I am not advocating breaking the law and retaining possession of an unlicensed firearm) - obviously the health risks of the applicant need to be weighed up by him because it will likely require him to physically present himself at his DFO. I imagine there are competency tests that would need to be done too... Despite all of this, an amnesty application would likely be a long and arduous process with no guarantees of a successful outcome.

For what may well be a relatively low value revolver with minimal sentimental value, my 2c would be to surrender at the appropriate time - for sure this is the lowest stress route.

[J le Roux]

Hi Dimitri

I imagine there are thousands of similar cases, with or without the Covid-19 complications.

The unfortunate thing is that this is likely going to come back to haunt us in a bad way in a few years.

The scenario is that many folks are sitting with unlicensed firearms. When they pass on, their next of kin just inherit the problems. I doubt that all of these new 'owners' will take the necessary security precautions to safeguard these unlicensed firearms. How many will get stolen or 'lost' and end up in the hands of criminals? Will these cases be reported?

I don't know what the answers are, but "Houston, we have a problem"

[OosKaapJagter]

The one problem most people ignore is that the problem won't just go away. Firearms are traceable to the last legal owner.

If you have an unlicensed firearm, it is a crime.
If you claim that you no longer have it, you will be charged with negligent loss of the firearm if you can't produce it.

Either way you will probably be declared unfit to possess firearms.

Think you have relocated and they won't find you? Failure to notify the Registrar is in itself a crime punishable with up to two years imprisonment. They can trace you through Home Affairs, vehicle licencing authorities, etc. Unless a person lives under a rock, you are traceable. The SAPS only needs to make an example of a few and the rest will come running.

Even if you know of a person who is not in lawful possession of a firearm or ammunition and fail to report it to a police official "without delay", that in itself is an offence. See section 120(2) of the Act.

Those sitting with firearms with expired licenses now have another problem. Since there is currently no amnesty, anyone going to hand in such unlicensed firearm may technically be arrested on the way to the police station, or even while attempting to hand it in. I am done preaching to those who just laughed off or ignored past warnings.

[tripodmvr]

Moet nie vergeet dat die omslagtige en swak bestuurde geweerlisensie wetgewing 'n groot deel van die probleme veroorsaak het. Ons dans en spring om alles na te kom, maar alhoewel jy as persoon bevoeg verklaar is en die nodige vaardighede verkry het, moet jy nog elke keer aansoek doen vir 'n nuwe aankoop. Dan is dit dus nie "fair play" van regeringskant af nie.

Die stelsel sou op rekenaar gestel word, maar daarvan het dadels gekom. Dit is 'n massiewe papier oorlog wat baie tyd in beslag neem. Hoekom die geldigheidstydperke op lisensies. Maak dit onbeperk. Jy kan dan liewers die persoon se geestestoestand op vasgestelde tye monitor en so bepaal of hy bevoeg is om nog in besit van wapens te wees.

Die regering se "totale beheer" is grootliks vir die onwettige wapens verantwoordelik.

[Capt. Yoda]

Ongelukkig is dit nie n reg om n wapen in SA te besit nie so ons moet seker maar dans en spring as da gese word om te dans en te spring

[Dimitri]

Thanks for your comments everyone.

Ha ha. My wife read my original post and pointed out a number of typos which I have corrected.

I agree that the law regarding re-licensing is cumbersome and onerous to the degree that it makes it difficult for people to comply and difficult for SAPS to administer.

Wouldn't it be easier, instead of having to resubmit a physical application, motivation, fingerprints etc to simply click on an SAPS online affidavit that you are still using the firearm for the purposes for which it was licenses and that you remain fully compliant with the legal requirements to own a firearm. You sign online, upload proof of R70 payment and new character references and click send. System cross references against criminal convictions and rejects anything that would make you incompetent. A few months later you collect your new license.

So many more people would comply. So much more revenue would be collected. So much LESS work for SAPS.

[Methos]

Wouldn't it be easier, instead of having to resubmit a physical application, motivation, fingerprints etc to simply click on an SAPS online affidavit that you are still using the firearm for the purposes for which it was licenses and that you remain fully compliant with the legal requirements to own a firearm. You sign online, upload proof of R70 payment and new character references and click send. System cross references against criminal convictions and rejects anything that would make you incompetent. A few months later you collect your new license.

So many more people would comply. So much more revenue would be collected. So much LESS work for SAPS.

You are probably correct. But if you take into account the Free State Website built on WordPress built for R140 Mil then what would such a sophisticated site cost?

https://mybroadband.co.za/news/governme ... merge.html

The sum would be astronomical Will probably make most people pronounce it like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqNa6992ih4



Cheers

[Dimitri]

Wouldn't it be easier, instead of having to resubmit a physical application, motivation, fingerprints etc to simply click on an SAPS online affidavit that you are still using the firearm for the purposes for which it was licenses and that you remain fully compliant with the legal requirements to own a firearm. You sign online, upload proof of R70 payment and new character references and click send. System cross references against criminal convictions and rejects anything that would make you incompetent. A few months later you collect your new license.

So many more people would comply. So much more revenue would be collected. So much LESS work for SAPS.

You are probably correct. But if you take into account the Free State Website built on WordPress built for R140 Mil then what would such a sophisticated site cost?

https://mybroadband.co.za/news/governme ... merge.html

The sum would be astronomical Will probably make most people pronounce it like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqNa6992ih4



Cheers

Ha ha ha. Our ex president in fine form there.

As with anything, corruption and incompetence would need to be eliminated or at least limited in order to keep costs down and produce a system that functions properly. The NIPAS system where you can get your NW hunting licenses online works quite well. I don't know what it cost.

There are long-term savings in manpower, paper and other resources in implementing an online system provided the cost is not ridiculous to begin with. Not to mention the convenience for the customer. However, as with most things GOVERNMENT efficiency and effectiveness are not a good thing. It means too many connected contractors will get cut out of the loop. People make millions and billions out of inefficient government systems and services.

[Dimitri]

Will be watching how things unfold after the recent ruling ion favour of Fidelity.

[tripodmvr]

Look at Regulations 84 and 85 of the FCA. Such a computer system should be there. If I remember correctly the police spent R600 million to get such a system and nothing came of it. Money down the drain.