Understanding red dot and reflex sights for rifles

[Desperatezulu]

I want to replace the scope on my 9.3x62 with a reflex sight - basically I want to reduce weight and lower the profile of the gun.

But I have no clue what to look for - I have searched the forum for info but there is very little written about these sights. I see @DWB /Deon seems to be a big fan of them so I am hoping he will chime in!
I have written a series of questions that hopefully can be answered, which will be useful for others who may be considering 'red dot sights'

Firstly to check my understanding is correct - this is a red dot sight


And this is a reflex sight:


1. From my reading, many/most reflex sights seem to be aimed at pistols - is there a difference between handgun and rifle reflex sights? I do note that the pistol reflexes seem to have much larger red dots - often up to 6 MOA. I guess the mounting designs are probably different?

2. To my mind I'd like a 1 MOA dot - maybe 2 MOA at most. I intend to use the rifle for short range hunting but even so, I don't want half the animal blocked out by the dot if I do have a 150m shot. Unfortunately there don't seem to be many 1 MOA dots available - is there a reason for this? What dot size should I be looking for?

3. Reticle and dot colour - I see different dot shapes (Trijicon comes to mind), some reticles have a circle around the dot and then there are dot colours - red and green mostly but some variations on this too. What are the pros and cons with reticles and colours? Anything to watch out for?

4. The million dollar question - which brand/model to go for? Of course I understand that the more expensive brands/models are likely to be higher quality but what is that quality? Am I paying a premium for reliability? For precision? Clarity? Something else? What brands are recommended and which should be avoided?

5. What are the complexities of mounting the reflex sight? My rifle is a CZ550 so I presume the sight would mount on the forward dovetail mounting - does the reflex sight require some sort of adaptor plate? Or is it a custom fitment job for a gunsmith? Or do reflex sights come ready-made to fit a variety of rifle mountings?

6. Am I wrong with reflex sights and I should really be looking for a red dot sight? My reasons against a red dot are their higher profile, higher weight and I have no need for magnification. But I could be missing some benefits of a red dot sight?

If anyone has any suggestions of specific brands/models I should consider that meet my criteria above, please shout!

PS: Feel free to reply in Afrikaans!

[DWB]

Hi DZ!

I am tied down at work a bit now.

You will need a mount of sorts for the CZ.

I have 3 x Aimpoint Micros 2x H1 and 1 x H2, and I firmly believe the H1's sight line is lower than some Reflex Sights.
I am extremely partial to the Aimpoint Micros.

The RMR's triangle can give you the benefit of a point to use for aiming, however a 2MOA dot (at most) is also wonderfully useful, with a 1MOA dot even more so.

I am at the point where I don't want to use a scope anymore... I enjoy up close and personal hunting and feel you as a hunter should be able to make the choice to shoot or not...

Will chime in more once I can.

20210307_200022.jpg

[alecjohnson]

1. From my reading, many/most reflex sights seem to be aimed at pistols - is there a difference between handgun and rifle reflex sights? I do note that the pistol reflexes seem to have much larger red dots - often up to 6 MOA. I guess the mounting designs are probably different?

2. To my mind I'd like a 1 MOA dot - maybe 2 MOA at most. I intend to use the rifle for short range hunting but even so, I don't want half the animal blocked out by the dot if I do have a 150m shot. Unfortunately there don't seem to be many 1 MOA dots available - is there a reason for this? What dot size should I be looking for?
You will be surprised how little of an animal is covered with a 3.25MOA dot (brightness is adjustable brighter bigger dot less bright very small dot) I have not hunted antelope with mine (only pigeons). But on the shooting range I did take aim on antelope targets at 250m it barely covers the springbok head (Brain area not; mouth, horns and ears on mid-low setting).

3. Reticle and dot colour - I see different dot shapes (Trijicon comes to mind), some reticles have a circle around the dot and then there are dot colours - red and green mostly but some variations on this too. What are the pros and cons with reticles and colors? Anything to watch out for?

Reticle getting lost, red is not very beneficial in the Kalahari dunes(my experience) and green could get lost in the thickets of the bush.

4. The million dollar question - which brand/model to go for? Of course I understand that the more expensive brands/models are likely to be higher quality but what is that quality? Am I paying a premium for reliability? For precision? Clarity? Something else? What brands are recommended and which should be avoided?

I did not know what to go for, I am a BIG Vortex fan and that ruled out the RMR for me, I had to choose venom viper or Razor. I went with the Razor, the glass is absolutely amazing! I wish I could get razor glass sunglasses, I cannot explain it other than it makes reality look sharper and more real.

5. What are the complexities of mounting the reflex sight? My rifle is a CZ550 so I presume the sight would mount on the forward dovetail mounting - does the reflex sight require some sort of adaptor plate? Or is it a custom fitment job for a gunsmith? Or do reflex sights come ready-made to fit a variety of rifle mountings?
You get a picatinny mount with the Razor, I cannot speak for other brands. mounting plates are readily available, I personally would prefer to have it mounted on the front part of the action, that will require drilling and tapping.

6. Am I wrong with reflex sights and I should really be looking for a red dot sight? My reasons against a red dot are their higher profile, higher weight and I have no need for magnification. But I could be missing some benefits of a red dot sight?
With red dot you have a much greater field of view

I did get the Razor for my pistol, I could not get the correct mount for my CZ75PreB so I modified a CZ 75B mount, this mount lasted just under 1k rounds and came loose, I will have a smith mill my slide for a more flush fitment in the future. I mounted the razor on my PCP and what fun I had to shoot pigeons with that setup!

It is a crazy expensive little thing, I am however extremely happy with my 3.25MOA razor red dot.

[Desperatezulu]

Many thanks for the replies, Deon and Alec!

So we have one strong endorsement for an Aimpoint red dot and one strong endorsement for a Vortex reflex And a semi endorsement for an RMR. And I'm still struggling to make a call here between red dot and reflex ha ha!

I firmly believe the H1's sight line is lower than some Reflex Sights.

I am interested in this comment - when I look at the dimensions online, it appears the a red dot sight is typically about twice the height of a reflex sight. (1.8 inches versus about 1 inch, varies between models) so I presume that for the H1 to be similar to a reflex, the reflex must be high due to the mounting plate?
The rifle I'll be mounting it on has a hogsback stock design, i.e. the natural alignment is for open sights, so the lower the red dot/reflex the better.

The only 1 MOA red dot I've come across seems to be the RMR, so that's a plus for the RMR - availability and price seem to be a negative though. I take note of Alec's comment that the dot size is less restrictive than I feared - so 2 MOA is likely to be fine for my purposes.

Any other thoughts and recommendations for brands and models?

[Thunderhead]

I have a Burris reddot on my 4570 double, use a Aimpoint on my 458, Vortex AR on my .22 and sightmark on my 30 herret.
In my opinion for backup a red dot or RMR is unrivaled for speed. I do miss being able to see better when I am hunting and find my Leopold firedot alot more versatile for everyday hunting because I can see better I can be more precise when need be but am still very quick if I have to with the firedot on when in bad light conditions. Example when animal stand in shade or thick brush I can see clearly if its the animal I want how its standing and look for opening which to shoot through.The only time the red dot is better is when I am working in very close quarter shooting at moving animals. Of the sights I have tried I have the most faith in the Aim point. Its tough as nails and its battery life is a few years if left on.

[Lategan1]

Zulu, if you can find a opinion from the hunters in Europe, it might support an informed decision. Website, social media etc. What do they prefer for wild boar hunting? Also for red and roe deer hunting, same hunting environment.

I tend to agree with Alec, 1 or 2 MOA dot. Magnification also important, 1x, 2x etc.

Intended distances and quarry size dictates. Environment, snow, woods etc.

From my experience, it is to optimize close to med range hunting, not traditional 150-250m ranges. But, I am also not on top of the latest lovely technology!

Beste.

[DWB]

Kyk bietjie die eerste klompie minute van hierdie video.

Het my soveel ekstra respek vir Aimpoint gegee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HgJCx0q4F0

Aangaande die hoogte, die Reflex Sights se lens sit bo-op sy mount plate en dan sy breins. Die Aimpoint is rond en het net die mount onder, wat lekker laag is, sy breins is nie in die pad nie, dus is sy middelpunt lekker laag. My opinie.

[Desperatezulu]

Thanks, Thunderhead!
That's quite a variety of different red dots you use!

The only time the red dot is better is when I am working in very close quarter shooting at moving animals. Of the sights I have tried I have the most faith in the Aim point. Its tough as nails and its battery life is a few years if left on.

The usage you describe is exactly what I intend to use it for! I take note of your recommendation of the Aimpoint - thanks!

[Desperatezulu]

From my experience, it is to optimize close to med range hunting, not traditional 150-250m ranges.

I see 150m as the limit for my usage of this rifle/sight combo. Good suggestion on European hunting opinions, I'll see what I can find!

[Lategan1]

DWB-Deon. Dankie, indrukwekkend, verseker koop jy nie sjinees nie!!

Beste.

[JAGTERSREG-JRM]

I have a total of 8 red dot type sights -300 blackout, 45/70, 416 ruger,375 Ruger, 375 HH, 454 casull, 458 wm and then a RMR on 450/400. I mostly hunt bushveld and prefer "up close and personal". I have hunted out to 240 yards with the 375HH and most of the others out to 150 yards. I mainly use the 9000sc or 9000L series and wont ever change to a scope on any of these rifles. Quick shooting with both eyes open makes a huge difference when hunting, I even shot 2x jackal at night at give or take 90 yards. Aimpoint is almost bullet proof and never had any problems whatsoever.

[LoopSoosStroop]

Just to give another perspective on the matter and my 2c ....

I've used and hunted with red dot sights before, but just 4 animals. All were with 2 MOA dots. It's a very rewarding experience, but you need time and opportunity to fully enjoy it. When you do not have the opportunity to spend a lot of time in the veld per year and you only have one or two hunting rifles, you start giving up shots which you would have taken if you had a scope. Depending on your eyes, shot distance becomes an issue quickly, and you also struggle to see openings if there are branches and bush closer to the animal. So if you are hunting for biltong and are somewhat pressurized, and need to be able to take any good opportunity, I would not recommend it.

I would love to hunt with a red dot again, but with my current hunting time and $$$ available it does not make sense.

[Thunderhead]

Take a lesson from a fool regarding usage of these sights. Always have spare batteries and tool in your hunting pack.Periodically check intensity as it gets darker so you dont get halo effect.When sighting in start close like 10 meters.

Thanks, Thunderhead!
That's quite a variety of different red dots you use!

The only time the red dot is better is when I am working in very close quarter shooting at moving animals. Of the sights I have tried I have the most faith in the Aim point. Its tough as nails and its battery life is a few years if left on.

The usage you describe is exactly what I intend to use it for! I take note of your recommendation of the Aimpoint - thanks!

[Frederik]

DesperateZulu,

Here goes your answers below:

1. There is no difference between pistol of rifle reflex sights acutraully the reflex sight on pistol gets more hammering than on big bores.
Where the big bores does hammer the reflex sights is on the mounting system and that is the weakest point.
I have a Trijicon SRO in 1 MOA very happy and its fine enough to shoot on paper and you just set it brighter if you want it a bit bigger.

2. They do come in 1MOA Trijicon has them amd sure other brands would have but 2 MOA would work just as great as miy dot is usually set on basically 2 MOA when hunting.

3. I have a red dot and it works great no hassles thus far easy to pick up. I suppose I would have an issue if I end up insde a T-Rex or whale stomach seeing red on red.

4. I looked and searched long there are good brands ou there but settled with Trijicon and it was hands down the Trijicon when the new SRO model came out with a bigger screen it just works. They have life time guaraantee and the agnet office is not 5km away from where I stay.


5. Something me and a MRS Technologies put together is the Apex Predator mount for reflex and red dot sights sepcifically for CZ 550/Bruno rifles.
Pictures attached basically you slide off your V flip up sights and slight in the mount the mount has different footprints for different makes of red dot and reflex sights. It is more forward and you pick up the sight and dot much quicker than with mounting it on the bases of the action and it is also lower.

20200807_091218.jpg

6. It is a lot of fun to hunt like that and its like open sights just better and if you eyes are getting weaker you concentrate on the target aninal only and just put the dot on the right spot.

In conclusion this is what I would also look into:

Get a sight that doesn't automatically switches off. Trijicon doesnt and on medium low setting will last 3 years on.
Get a small MOA dot like you are talking about dont get bullied into buying bigger than 2 MOA because its a good price you will regret it.
They are not cheap but neither is a good quality scope but they will last a lifetime.

[Lategan1]

Zulu, following inputs from Kobus en Soetstroop, ook Frederik e.a.

The single one aspect for me, apart from your solid replies and hunting in South Africa, is shot placement. If it is of importance and you’re not aware thereof.

The Wildboar and deer hunters in the woods and snow, is nowhere as shot placement conscious as we are. It happens at speed of lightning imagine quicker than shooting birds with a shotgun. You struggle to hear or see them, next moment they’re on you, whilst you have to combat the tree’s as well, you don’t have time! The Dear Lords big present.

With your 9.3x62, I will possibly contempt using mono’s to allow for poorer shot placement and consequent more meat damage. Sal graag Kobus se ervaring hieroor wil hoor.

This is i.e. why dot size is important.

My2c.

Beste.

[Frederik]

And if you have 15 minutes have a look at this this changed my mind from RMR to SRO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzjgOq60vFE

[JAGTERSREG-JRM]

Regarding Battery Life.......The one on my Ruger No 1 416 Ruger was installed 2013, replaced battery once!

5 years
With a battery life of over 5 years of constant-on use, the Aimpoint 9000SC sight is the top choice for reliability and performance.

[Arnold]

A cheaper option is the Holosun and they are locally available. They have various models so have a look at their website.

[Frederik]

Holosun has same footprint as Trijicon btw.

[Zuku]

I have never hunt with a Red dot. I do have a Red dot Tasco PDP3 on my IPSC pistol and a PDP 2 on the IPSC rifle. Most of my old team mates upgraded to reflect sights on their pistols. On the older models it actually raises the dot from the frame the way it was built and I could not fancy that. In sharp daylight some struggle to find the dot on a reflex sight. What I do like about tube models Red dot is that your eye tends to line up tube. For hunting you can ad an extension tube to block out the sun. Average Shooters shoot better and faster when using a red dot. You can easily shoot accurate at 150 m with a small red dot. During one practice session the scope battery died. I completed the session by just using the tube and look through it without a dot and still shot better that the other guys on the range with open sights. Currently all will agree any type will let you shoot better and faster, but not a clear winner on which one.

read more here

https://dailyshooting.com/reflex-sight- ... dot-sight/

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/r ... les.42063/

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/h ... hts.21293/

[Desperatezulu]

Thanks for all the replies, guys! Much appreciated and lots of great info!

I am aware of turning my 9.3 into a short range rifle - it is a 9.3 not a 375 Cheytac after all I do currently have a scope on it with QR mounts. My intention is to keep the scope in case I want to use it for testing groupings or I have some reason that I need magnification
I have various other rifles bigger and smaller than the 9.3 so it will remain a case of 'horses for courses' in terms of choosing the right tool for the job.

5. Something me and a MRS Technologies put together is the Apex Predator mount for reflex and red dot sights specifically for CZ 550/Bruno rifles.
Pictures attached basically you slide off your V flip up sights and slight in the mount the mount has different footprints for different makes of red dot and reflex sights. It is more forward and you pick up the sight and dot much quicker than with mounting it on the bases of the action and it is also lower.

This sounds like a great solution - can I contact you directly to get such a mount?

[Frederik]

Sure you can call me 083 seven 09 8927 phone or whatsapp.

[Frederik]

Zuku with the new tech the red dots and refelx sights are dping much beter I can basically see my 1 MOA red dot in poimtijg the rifle close to the sun

[Arnold]

Talking about red dots ... who also suffers from astigmatism?

Something to consider because the red dot does not look like a dot anymore ... a reason why I am considering a low powered variable optic after looking through some dots. For close range work this would not have a big influence but for further work this might impact accuracy?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[Lategan1]

Belangrike oorweging Arnold! Gadkwaal wat my al duisende rande gekos het, nou kan ek darem enkel kruishaar of klei sien.

Ek het/kon nooit kontaklense dra nie, maar nuwe tegnologie het dit moontlik gemaak. Beste raad wat ek gekry het vir haelgeweer, oop visier en ook red dot dot dot...

Eerste keuse moet wees kontaklense, indien nie werk nie, bril. Ek kan nou kontaklense of bril gebruik vir beide haelgeweer en teleskoop. Kan net nie turrets stel met lense nie!! Daarvoor het ek ook plan.

Hou in gedagte. Die pad kan lank wees om dit reg te stel.

Beste.